11591 replies to this topic

[sebberry]

This is the stuff lol’s are made of! What else you got?

 

The idea is that buying emissions credits from Tesla means FCA doesn't have to introduce a bunch of low/zero emissions models.  It's the same as if they met CAFE regulations within their own model lineup, except to some degree Tesla is, through the purchase of the credits, effectively part of the FCA lineup.  

[Mike K.]

Yup, that’s the idea.

[lanforod]

we all understand the idea... but if they're really serious about forcing companies to lower their average emissions, they wouldn't allow them to game it by piggybacking on ultra-low emitters.

[dasmo]

They are using the mechanisms of capitalism to create the desired effect. It trickles all the way down to lil ol me investing in the right company that will benefit by such policies! It places a monetary value on something that might influence the the machine s an authoritarian rule to dictate it so. 

[Mike K.]

Without Tesla, Fiat would be on the hook for billions of dollars in fines.

A corporation facing billions in fines will instead pay a few hundred million to Tesla for the privilege of continuing to produce vehicles people want to buy, but which now require a sin fee courtesy of the government. For a consortium that pulls in $140 billion per year, that’s a great deal, but it also shows how meaningless the EU’s environmental regulations are where competing companies can pool fleets to circumvent regulations.

Again, good on Tesla, but the claim that the company is not reliant on government regulations and incentives for its survival no longer holds water.

[LeoVictoria]

we all understand the idea... but if they're really serious about forcing companies to lower their average emissions, they wouldn't allow them to game it by piggybacking on ultra-low emitters.

The effect is the same. This is the same model that works in California.
In the end their targets are achieved because it’s a hard cap on emissions.

I have much more confidence that money going to a company that is the leader in producing zero emissions vehicles and will use it to produce more of them is better spent than funnelling that same money to the government.

[LeoVictoria]

For a consortium that pulls in $140 billion per year, that’s a great deal, but it also shows how meaningless the EU’s environmental regulations are

The only thing that matters is results. And the EU fleet average of new cars will get close to this 95gCO2/km target in 2021 no matter the mechanism. That’s a good thing.

Meanwhile the US average was 255g (2010 so slightly below that now probably). https://newatlas.com...ollution/15485/

Edited by LeoVictoria, 09 April 2019 - 05:35 AM.

[LeoVictoria]

we all understand the idea... but if they're really serious about forcing companies to lower their average emissions, they wouldn't allow them to game it by piggybacking on ultra-low emitters.

Nope it turns out they’ve thought about this a lot. Allowing manufacturers to trade credits incentivizes manufacturers to go below the targets, not just to them.

If you set the target at 100g and issue fines only then you only incentivize companies to get to 100 and no lower. The progressive or innovative company that has invested to get to 50g/km sees absolutely no bottom line benefit from doing so and thus it doesn’t happen.

By allowing credit trading and pooling, the company that hits 50g/km is now profiting because it can sell the extra credits. That drives further reductions and innovation.

[Mike K.]

Or in Tesla's case, it keeps the company from folding.

 

Fiat could create their own low-emission vehicles, but so few people want to buy them that they don't bother. We can dress this up as anything but a sanctimonious environmental pursuit the Europeans have devised, but ultimately it's just another feel good measure that gives corporations an out ...for a price, and keeps Tesla tethered to government-devised handouts.

[sebberry]

Or in Tesla's case, it keeps the company from folding.

 

Fiat could create their own low-emission vehicles, but so few people want to buy them that they don't bother. 

 

On the contrary - LE vehicles are popular enough (at least Teslas) that when factored into FCAs emissions output, the average is low enough that people can buy the bigger vehicles from FCA.

 

If so few people truly were buying LE vehicles, there wouldn't be enough to offset FCA's fleet and FCA would be forced to clean up their act.

[Mike K.]

If the average were low enough, I don't think FCA would be running to Tesla to buy credits in order to stave off billions in fines.

 

A quarter of Fiat's sales in Europe are Jeeps and Alfo Romeos which are all on the high side of emissions. Their other brands have a mix of LE and HE models. The profit is in those Jeeps and Alfas, though, and the little Fiat Panda's or whatever are loss leaders pushed hard to avoid even steeper emissions-related fines/fees, etc. At least that's my read of the situation, anyhow.

[LeoVictoria]

Or in Tesla's case, it keeps the company from folding.

Fiat could create their own low-emission vehicles, but so few people want to buy them that they don't bother. We can dress this up as anything but a sanctimonious environmental pursuit the Europeans have devised, but ultimately it's just another feel good measure that gives corporations an out ...for a price, and keeps Tesla tethered to government-devised handouts.

This thread will be amusing as the industry makes a whole scale switch to electric over the next decade or so.

Edited by LeoVictoria, 09 April 2019 - 08:01 AM.

[DustMagnet]

I thought the whole reason Musk founded got involved with Tesla was to kick the automotive industry in the pants to get them moving on replace the ICE.  I didn't think the plan was to actually take over or even seriously compete with the established auto industry long-term.

 

Not so much eating their lunch as trying to get them to eat their vegetables.

 

Maybe it just got out of hand.

[Mike K.]

This thread will be amusing as the industry makes a whole scale switch to electric over the next decade or so.

 

It's not the result, it's the process.

 

Fiat paying off Tesla to meet emissions targets is a mockery of society's transition towards cleaner vehicles. One day people will laugh about it, but today it's a (sad) sign of the times.

[dasmo]

It's not the result, it's the process.

 

Fiat paying off Tesla to meet emissions targets is a mockery of society's transition towards cleaner vehicles. One day people will laugh about it, but today it's a (sad) sign of the times.

Like we are all laughing at the GM bailout? At least this is a form of capitalism and not corporate welfare.... 

Tesla has just outsmarted these other companies. They were free to make luxury EVs. Only now that Tesla showed the way are they catching up. Tough luck. I hope there is an awesome photo opp of Fiat handing a mega check over to Musk! 

Edited by dasmo, 09 April 2019 - 12:40 PM.

[Mike K.]

Government-funded incentives are the very definition of corporate welfare, and since the incentives dried up look where sales have gone.

What’s happening between Fiat and Tesla isn’t capitalism. It’s a government-mandated wealth transfer.

[dasmo]

You're just bitter on the EV market ever since the demise of NIO 

[LeoVictoria]

I thought the whole reason Musk founded got involved with Tesla was to kick the automotive industry in the pants to get them moving on replace the ICE. I didn't think the plan was to actually take over or even seriously compete with the established auto industry long-term.

Not so much eating their lunch as trying to get them to eat their vegetables..

Yup that’s exactly it. Tesla showed the world that electric cars can be awesome and desirable and have large demand. Now every automaker has large scale electrification plans and is investing billions. Would have happened eventually without Tesla but they certainly brought it forward by a few years

[LeoVictoria]

It's not the result, it's the process.

Fiat paying off Tesla to meet emissions targets is a mockery of society's transition towards cleaner vehicles. One day people will laugh about it, but today it's a (sad) sign of the times.

All I can say is it’s a good thing you have no influence on policy since it is clearly not something you understand.

The EU has been effectively regulating cleaner emissions from their vehicles for many years. This ain’t new.

By the way, “society” does not transition to cleaner vehicles. It takes regulatory and government actions to properly recognize the cost of externalities (e.g. carbon tax) and police big automakers (e.g. dieselgate). The free market left to its own devices will quite happily poison everyone in exchange for more profits

Edited by LeoVictoria, 09 April 2019 - 05:24 PM.

[Mike K.]

Oh, brother...

Thanks for the mansplain, dad.