94 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

But they did just down the street. I mean extend the sidewalk and install some lights. It’s an interim measure that could save a life.

Look, all I’m saying is the mayor of this city has no problem asking people to spend tens of thousands of dollars of “excess” cash. For gosh sake, over the last three years we’d have already had a fully controlled intersection there had we not spent that money on frivolous nonsense like musical barriers, pop up art and other nonsense.

[nagel]

I think the key is to prioritize properly installed infra over other items, such as some of the ones you mentioned.

[Mike K.]

That is the key, absolutely, but we don’t seem to be doing that with the waste we’re incurring

[Cassidy]

Although I may indeed be one of them myself, there's a lot of folks talking through their hats in this current conversation ... rendering legal opinions and such.

 

The City of Victoria can do pretty  much anything it wants to do on City streets, and as relates to City infrastructure, and be immune from any sort of push-back (from anybody), similar to how any City of Victoria marked vehicle can park anywhere it wants (including in a no parking zone, a loading zone, a passenger zone, etc) and never get a ticket.

 

There is a City of Victoria by-law that notes specifically the the City of Victoria doesn't ever have to follow its own by-laws (see giant, animated, pulsating sign in front of Save On Foods Arena as an example) ... so there's that tidbit that tends to support a couple of city workers, a bucket of paint, and a roller on a broom handle as a good (if temporary) solution that isn't going to wind up in any sort of kangaroo court anywhere, and will immediately offer at least double the safety over the next two years rather than leaving Government Street at Herald Street a legal crosswalk without any sort of  marking whatsoever.

Edited by Cassidy, 22 November 2017 - 12:12 PM.

[rjag]

You could do it if you put up barriers closing one lane of traffic each direction.  Painted crosswalks do not meet standards for 4 lane arterials.  They can't put one in even temporarily.

 

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...t/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...!7i13312!8i6656

[shoeflack]

I disagree that painting lines on the ground immediately makes the crossing safer. There are plenty of people, as Mike alludes to, that will not cross a major thoroughfare in an unmarked crosswalk. You toss some paint on the road, and all of the sudden you now have an unsafe marked crosswalk that more people will use. One that requires pedestrians to walk out into the road before really even crossing, and one that isn't properly illuminated at night.

 

Is more people crossing a road in an unsafe marked crosswalk really safer than less people crossing in an unmarked crosswalk? I don't believe so.

 

To Mike's point, just add some concrete and lighting to go alongside the paint. Heck, it's only one side of the road that needs concrete and there are already streetlights on the corner than can be replaced by overhead lights. Don't even need a new power source.

Edited by shoeflack, 22 November 2017 - 12:23 PM.

[Cassidy]

I disagree that painting lines on the ground immediately makes the crossing safer. 

Simple logic doesn't support this kind of thinking, although the way you've presented it is 100% subjective, so you can't be "wrong".

 

Important to note that there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that either proves, or implies that painting lines at Herald Street will, or won't increase the number of people crossing at that specific location ... indeed all that may happen is that the exact same number of people that always cross there will continue to cross there ... only in the safety of a marked crosswalk instead of a substantially more dangerous unmarked crosswalk.

[nagel]

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...t/data=!3m1!1e3

 

https://www.google.c...!7i13312!8i6656

So weird.  The first one was JUST redone, and 2 of the others have flashing light crossings.  The others are likely older than the change in the standards.  Show me a brand new painted crosswalk on a 4 lane arterial in town and I'll eat my bicycle bell.

[nagel]

There's the old beaut on Hillside just east of Cook where every couple of years someone gets killed.  Nice and safe painted crosswalk  .

[Cassidy]

There's the old beaut on Hillside just east of Cook where every couple of years someone gets killed.  Nice and safe painted crosswalk  .

That crosswalk is not only painted, but it's ALSO got dedicated overhead lighting AND lots of dedicated signage, AND a refuge island in the middle of the crosswalk.

 

How on earth does that crosswalk even factor into this discussion?

 

Or are you advocating for no crosswalks at all across a four land roadway? 

Edited by Cassidy, 22 November 2017 - 01:33 PM.

[Mike K.]

I disagree that painting lines on the ground immediately makes the crossing safer. There are plenty of people, as Mike alludes to, that will not cross a major thoroughfare in an unmarked crosswalk. You toss some paint on the road, and all of the sudden you now have an unsafe marked crosswalk that more people will use. One that requires pedestrians to walk out into the road before really even crossing, and one that isn't properly illuminated at night.

 

You bring up a very valid point.

 

Yesterday VHF and I ran into a City of Victoria employee. We got to talking about this intersection and he said that more people cross Government at Herald despite the safety issue than at Caledonia.

[aastra]

 

...more people cross Government at Herald despite the safety issue...

 

Times are changing. That district isn't all about trains and trucks and through traffic anymore. It's a growing downtown neighbourhood. Don't we want all 4-way intersections downtown to look and function like proper downtown intersections and to be pedestrian-friendly by default?

[nagel]

That crosswalk is not only painted, but it's ALSO got dedicated overhead lighting AND lots of dedicated signage, AND a refuge island in the middle of the crosswalk.

 

How on earth does that crosswalk even factor into this discussion?

 

Or are you advocating for no crosswalks at all across a four land roadway? 

It requires at least a beg button and flashing light crossing.

 

Edit - they may have installed this type of additional infrastructure in the last year, after that 36 year old died of course.  I don't live near there and can't confirm.

Edited by nagel, 22 November 2017 - 02:47 PM.

[nagel]

Here you go.  You want the Herald crosswalk to be elevated?  Just run a change.org petition AND have someone die and it will happen.

 

https://www.change.o...a-warning-light

[Bingo]

I see that they are putting in new crosswalks in the MIDDLE of the block as they build the new separated bike lanes along Fort Street.

This is a great idea since pedestrians are not crossing at a crosswalk where vehicles are also turning right or left.

The next thing to do is eliminate crosswalks at intersections and put up barriers so that pedestrians can't cross at an intersection.

Then vehicles turning right of left are not impeded by pedestrians who decide to walk long after the signal says don't walk.

This plan should only cost a few more tens of millions to implement.

[Cassidy]

Times are changing. That district isn't all about trains and trucks and through traffic anymore. It's a growing downtown neighbourhood. Don't we want all 4-way intersections downtown to look and function like proper downtown intersections and to be pedestrian-friendly by default?

Not for $200,000.00 we don't!

 

That part of town, and especially the 500 Block Herald St were on the upswing over 30 years ago, longer than that if you start with the Herald Street Cafe era (which is what originally brought folks to the 500 Block of Herald St, previously this was a pass-through street, wall to wall warehouses on both sides of the road) ... the point being, this upswing is nothing "new".

 

I get it though ... a $200,000.00 crosswalk features world class engineering, it looks fantastic, has a fancy brick or painted footing, contoured concrete protrusions on each end of the crosswalk, a refuge island in the middle of Gov't St, great signage, and solar powered overhead lighting ... along with a flashing light set-up that's pedestrian activated ... I get all that  -  but just because it looks great and has lots of "tech" attached to it doesn't mean we actually need it.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the City of Victoria has more pressing issues to facilitate then a $200,000.00 crosswalk at Government and Herald Streets.

That said ... $1500.00 will still get you two city guys, a bucket of traffic white, and a roller on the end of a broom handle ... AND a painted crosswalk to improve pedestrian safety.

 

The City of Victoria needs to learn to accomplish tasks in a much more nimble fashion, without immediately assuming that they will have instant access to a quarter of a million dollars with which to accomplish even the smallest task.

They also need to evaluate their management and employee ability to actually live that lesson, and plan and work efficiently ... as the knowledge that there's a quarter of a million dollars in the budget for a single crosswalk doesn't exactly inspire management and workers to think and work efficiently ... but that's a contentious topic for another thread - another day

[Cassidy]

It requires at least a beg button and flashing light crossing.

 

Edit - they may have installed this type of additional infrastructure in the last year, after that 36 year old died of course.  I don't live near there and can't confirm.

Nah, Google Street View (time machine feature) shows it all in place back in 2009.

[shoeflack]

That said ... $1500.00 will still get you two city guys, a bucket of traffic white, and a roller on the end of a broom handle ... AND a painted crosswalk to improve pedestrian safety.

 

Might get a half or a third of the job done. The City of Victoria report linked a few pages back estimates $3,000 for a crosswalk across a 2-lane street, and $4,000 for one across a three-lane street. Government & Herald being 4 lanes, plus let's say one extra lane between the row of parking and bike lane...let's say $6,000 for a 5 lane street? Has to be at least $5,000.

 

These costs are simply for paint and the legally mandated sign-on-pole crosswalk sign. Absolute basic needs is $3,000 for a two lane street. And this was a year and a half ago mind you.

 

As someone who touts government experience, you ought to know the bureaucracy required in doing anything. WorkSafe BC, internal policies, requirement of contractors, etc. It's not as simple as two guys and a bucket of paint. It never will be.

[Cassidy]

• 2 X 20 litre pail of traffic white - $40.00 ea. - total $80.00
• 2 city guys (working efficiently!) = 16 man hours @ $50.00 per hour - $800.00
• Paint sundries, rollers, etc - $100.00
• Contracted flag person $300.00 per 8 hour day.

 

Total - $1280.00

 

That leaves $220.00 for signage in my original $1500.00 budget.

 

• I do indeed tout a level of government experience, and it's precisely this experience that causes me to note that our little crosswalk project could EASILY be completed to $1500.00.
• There isn't any Worksafe requirement, at least beyond the Worksafe policies applicable in every single business in B.C., and with every single employee in B.C.?
• Internal City of Victoria policies are EXACTLY what cause the problems that culminate in the new bridge and $200,000.00 crosswalks. They're what has to change.
• There are no contractors involved except the flagging company.

It absolutely is as simple as two guys and a bucket of paint, (and a cheque for $1500.00 of the taxpayers dollars) ... unless you work for the City of Victoria, and then apparently you require access to $200,000.00. 

 

(I feel like I'm exchanging words with some "Stepford Citizens" of the City of Victoria in some of these posts ... so last word can go to somebody else!).

Edited by Cassidy, 22 November 2017 - 04:09 PM.

[shoeflack]

$40 for a 20L pail of traffic paint...wow, there's a discount. Same price as the 1 gallon can from Canadian Tire. Going to need to replace that stuff a lot. Anything of quality, even at wholesale, will run a heck of a lot more than $40 for 20 litres. Not to mention 2x double sided crosswalk signs plus posts are going to be much more than $220.

 

I fail to see how any of this "easily" fits into $1,500. But this is all pie in the sky anyways, because it'd never happen.

 

I for one am glad the City of Victoria builds things to national and international standards of safety. If it costs $200,000 to install a proper controlled crossing, then so be it. I'm happy my tax dollars are going towards it.

Edited by shoeflack, 22 November 2017 - 04:28 PM.