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#1 Icebergalley

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 03:12 PM

Here's some thought provoking articles about planning, developing and programming the waterfront...

The Waterfront Renaissance:

Waterfronts are inextricably linked to the identity and vitality of cities. As many cities rediscover their roots on the river, lake or sea, we have a remarkable opportunity to create a new generation of great public spaces.


http://www.pps.org/i...r/february2007/

#2 G-Man

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 03:35 PM

Great article. Except for bring up Granville Island again!! I like that they point out that public space does not have value in and of itself. That there must be a purpose for it.

I found the pitfalls article connected to the main one very interesting. Our harbour is such a disaster that they did not even consider that there may be a city out there squandering there harbour in worse ways then the examples shown. Those parking lots are the true digrace of this city not some silly tourist ad.

Check it out. Vancouver gets one tick against for the Concert Properties area.

http://www.pps.org/info/newsletter/february2007/waterfronts_gone_wrong

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#3 aastra

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 04:50 PM

Did you mean Concord Pacific?

I don't agree with these "single use" criticisms of the north side of False Creek. It's a near perfect waterfront residential area. For crying out loud, it can be absolutely packed with people on nice days. Isn't that a fair measure of success? There are playfields, there's a community centre, there are cafes and restaurants, there are even stadiums and big box stores...set back from the water about the distance of one city block, which is very good because if they were right along the water that waterfront would absolutely suck.

#4 m0nkyman

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 04:52 PM

Did everyone count how many of the waterfronts_gone_wrong our harbour has made. I can think of an instance of each and every one....

Mistake #1: Single-Use Developments, Not Multi-Purpose Destinations

Mistake #2: Domination by Autos

Mistake #3: Too Much Passive Space or Too Much Recreation

Mistake #4: Private Control, not Public Access

Mistake #5: Lack of Destinations

Mistake #6: A Process Driven by Development, Not by Community

Mistake #7: Design Statements

#5 aastra

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 05:08 PM

Mistake #1: Single-Use Developments, Not Multi-Purpose Destinations
Victoria's Songhees might just be the best (worst) example in Canada in this regard.

Mistake #2: Domination by Autos
Wharf Street parking lots.

Mistake #3: Too Much Passive Space or Too Much Recreation
Victoria's inner harbour doesn't do too badly in this regard, does it? Then again, Bayview will soon be introducing new passive space on the Songhees (like we needed it).

Mistake #4: Private Control, not Public Access
Victoria is slowly but surely improving in this regard. Redevelopment of formerly private industrial properties has expanded public waterfront access immensely.

Mistake #5: Lack of Destinations
The quashed Songhees marina would have been something of a positive in this regard. Just about anything below Wharf Street would be better than what's there now (nothing).

Mistake #6: A Process Driven by Development, Not by Community
I'm not sure I understand this one. Wouldn't the community groups tend to demand the very things they're calling mistakes? I have no doubt this would be the case in Victoria.

Mistake #7: Design Statements
Makes me wish Victoria actually had a design statement on prime waterfront to complain about. What building are you thinking of, m0nkyman?

#6 m0nkyman

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 05:15 PM

Mistake #1: Single-Use Developments, Not Multi-Purpose Destinations
Victoria's Songhees might just be the best (worst) example in Canada in this regard.

Mistake #2: Domination by Autos
Wharf Street parking lots.

Mistake #3: Too Much Passive Space or Too Much Recreation
Victoria's inner harbour doesn't do too badly in this regard, does it? Then again, Bayview will soon be introducing new passive space on the Songhees (like we needed it).

Mistake #4: Private Control, not Public Access
Victoria is slowly but surely improving in this regard. Redevelopment of formerly private industrial properties has expanded public waterfront access immensely.

Mistake #5: Lack of Destinations
The Songhees marina would have been a positive in this regard.

Mistake #6: A Process Driven by Development, Not by Community
I'm not sure I understand this one. Wouldn't the community groups tend to demand the very things they're calling mistakes? I have no doubt this would be the case in Victoria.

Mistake #7: Design Statements
Makes me wish Victoria actually had a design statement on prime waterfront to complain about. What building are you thinking of, m0nkyman?


Empress/Legislature fit the bill when you look at the role described:
"Many waterfronts today have become the site of stand-alone, iconic buildings. These buildings stand as design statements that neither foster lively public use nor connect their ground floor activity to the surrounding public spaces. In fact, these projects dampen public activity and diminish any sense of place."

#7 G-Man

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 05:17 PM

How about the Nanaimo Port Theatre for an Island example.

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#8 aastra

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 05:20 PM

The passive space on Laurel Point is a bit much, you think?

#9 Icebergalley

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:14 PM

When I read this one, I had positive thoughts of both The Empress and the Leg... etc...

http://www.pps.org/i... ... ont_around

12. Make stand-alone, iconic buildings serve multiple functions...


Stockholm's City Hall is not just the 'seat' of local government...An iconic structure can be a boon to the waterfront, so long as it acts as a multi-use destination. On a recent weekend morning in Stockholm, the busiest building along the waterfront was the City Hall. Surrounded by a plaza, park, and courtyards, the building shares its slice of the waterfront with a major pier where boats offer waterfront tours. Clearly, this City Hall is more than a one-dimensional icon, it is also a good neighbor with a strong sense of place. Today's icons should strive to achieve the same flexibility and public-spirited presence.

BTW... I couldn't resist a walk through Songhees to see the Shutter's and the Bayview sites... this bright sunny am.. (took my own advice...)

Have to digest it a bit, a big bit, more to come...

#10 Icebergalley

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:16 PM

And, we haven't even got to Esquimalt... or Dallas Road... or Sidney.. or Brentwood Bay..

We'll have lots to chat about here..

#11 G-Man

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 03:23 PM

For the most part I think the Dallas Road waterfront public space works. They could widen the path a bit so the joggers would not have to be dodging people so much but overall it is a well used space. The one place I think could use an overhaul is Clover Point. I mean this is an amazing piece of land and we use it for parking. This would be a great spot for some outlandish piece of sculpture, our Statue of Liberty. Another possible idea could be a large pedestrian area with a destination restaurant like Oak Bay Marina. Or it could be a new location for the maritime museum.

Just some thoughts...

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#12 m0nkyman

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:39 PM

Cruise ship + Luxury Hotel + Conference Centre + small shopping district fronting on Dallas Road = One NIMBY conniption.... but it'd be worth it. ;)

#13 gumgum

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:46 PM

I think there needs to be a bike path along Dallas road. Maybe on the opposite side of the water so as to avoid doggy/ bike collisions. Although the road is wide, it's a bit dangerous, especially along the parallel parking areas. Vancouver's sea wall has one and it's great. We should have one too, all the way from Fisherman's Wharf to Hollywood.
With regards to Clover Point: loose the ring road and add a small parking area closer to Dallas. Clover Point would be a great gathering spot for a picnic and even events if it where just a patch of grass. Maybe a few trees.

#14 gumgum

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 04:48 PM

I definitely think a couple of restaurants on Dallas in Fairfield would be great. Imagine a terrific patio with a view of the ocean.

#15 Icebergalley

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 09:42 PM

The passive space on Laurel Point is a bit much, you think?


Not when one looks out from the hotel...

The "destination" is Laurel Point itself...

It's a good viewing spot for Tall Ships and planes etc..

and, on a 24/7/360 basis it's a waterside connection between the Inner Harbour and the Middle Harbour....

My big beef about it is the poorly identified access at Bellville and Pendray.. ? and I guess that applies more so to the narrow access points near Laurel Point Inn and Coast.. - an example of a developement driven access solution as opposed to a community planning one..

#16 aastra

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:16 PM

Well said.

#17 ressen

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 09:41 AM

I think Clover Point has been spoken for. There will be large concrete sewage lagoons built surrounded by chain link fences.

#18 Icebergalley

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 01:18 PM

Old technology assumed?

#19 Icebergalley

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 06:10 PM

Walked along Ship Point this evening and there has been am "aesthetically" designed black security fence installed on the northside of the pier.

Right now it's guarding the zodiacs and one of the Ocean Magic class Prince of Whales boats...

Other waterfronts have spent so much effort at opening them up to the public, and Victoria is building fences..

Next thing we'll see an advertising banner like the one at Parkside Spa being installed.. (saucey fellow I am today)

#20 G-Man

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 06:39 AM

What? That is crap.

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