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Victoria Rapid Transit Project - CRD/BC Transit - Light Rail (LRT) has been recommended


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#1241 Ismo07

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 07:40 AM

Sorry are there cities in N.A. the size of greater Victoria that have LRT or commuter rail?  I just can't see affording something like this.  The current rail line couldn't really be used as it's too narrow in many places.  Would you have trains waiting for others to pass each other?  Would you build one line right above the other?  Is this really feasible financially? Will rides be $40-$50 each way?  Hate to be a downer on this one but I won't see this in my life-time I don't think.


Edited by Ismo07, 16 October 2019 - 07:40 AM.

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#1242 Mike K.

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 08:50 AM

Our road network is so poor that our traffic issues are not unlike those in cities of a million people+. 400,000 people and a single highway connecting the biggest residential areas, it’s unfathomable (and never mind the goat trail connecting the other half of the Island’s population). Nowhere else in the developed world would this situation exist, regardless of terrain.

And what else do we do because of our fractured, insular municipal makeup? We try to reduce vehicle capacity along arteries that can act as a patchwork to partially avoid the highway or feed into it.


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#1243 Jackerbie

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 09:00 AM

^^Seattle.

Even the Skytrain extension into PoCo is at-grade, at least through town. Or was that Port Moody? Can’t remember where exactly I saw it running through town.

 

Port Moody. It runs parallel to the heavy rail (CPR and West Coast Express). Coquitlam is above ground with one long tunnelled section through Burquitlam

skytrain-evergreen-line-map..jpg

skytrain-evergreen-line-map.jpg



#1244 Mike K.

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 09:37 AM

Thanks!

 

Yeah, I was walking through town not having realized there was a Skytrain line there and suddenly I heard the familiar noise, turn around and there goes a train just steps away. Whoa!


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#1245 Ismo07

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 10:53 AM

Our road network is so poor that our traffic issues are not unlike those in cities of a million people+. 400,000 people and a single highway connecting the biggest residential areas, it’s unfathomable, and get here we are (and never mind the goat trail connecting the other half of the Island’s population). Nowhere else in the developed world would this situation exist, regardless of terrain.

And what else do we do because of our fractured, insular municipal makeup? We try to reduce vehicle capacity along arteries that can act as a patchwork to partially avoid the highway or feed into it.

But I don't think we could support it.  Even if it was paid for by the feds I'm not sure user fees could be high enough to cover operating expenses of such an endeavor.



#1246 Mike K.

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 11:01 AM

Most definitely.

 

The LRT plan from a decade back glanced over grownup conversations around user fees and the long-term impact on fares. Vancouverites living in Zone 3 pay $171 per month for their pass, or $86 more than Victorians pay for their region-wide pass. Zone 2 is $131 per month, and zone 1 (meaning you only travel within Vancouver, which would equal to travel only within Victoria/Saan/Esq/Oak) is $98.

 

A walk-on fare is $5.75 from zone 3, $4.25 from zone 2, and $3 in zone 1. Our system is $2.50, or $5 for a day pass. Vancouver's day pass is $10.50.


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#1247 Ismo07

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 03:19 PM

Most definitely.

 

The LRT plan from a decade back glanced over grownup conversations around user fees and the long-term impact on fares. Vancouverites living in Zone 3 pay $171 per month for their pass, or $86 more than Victorians pay for their region-wide pass. Zone 2 is $131 per month, and zone 1 (meaning you only travel within Vancouver, which would equal to travel only within Victoria/Saan/Esq/Oak) is $98.

 

A walk-on fare is $5.75 from zone 3, $4.25 from zone 2, and $3 in zone 1. Our system is $2.50, or $5 for a day pass. Vancouver's day pass is $10.50.

Mike that's a lot more people using it that can spread the cost out.  We wouldn't have but a small percentage.  Forget the buses this is a different animal.  For all the issues people talk about transit, it gets you to a lot of places.  LRT would not be the same.  This is a pipe dream for Victoria, sorry folks.  We get BRT.



#1248 vortoozo

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 04:38 PM

Sorry are there cities in N.A. the size of greater Victoria that have LRT or commuter rail?  I just can't see affording something like this.  The current rail line couldn't really be used as it's too narrow in many places.  Would you have trains waiting for others to pass each other?  Would you build one line right above the other?  Is this really feasible financially? Will rides be $40-$50 each way?  Hate to be a downer on this one but I won't see this in my life-time I don't think.

 

Why is North America the benchmark here?
Just got back from a regional city in Norway - Trondheim - population 190K.

The city centre is in a valley with a fjord on one side so has the same problem as we do with limited access points into the city centre.

They have a decent bus system, mostly operated by articulated busses and even some "super busses" with two joints that run up to every 5 minutes on peak routes: van-hool-exqui-city-trambus-hybridbus-hy

They also have an older electric tram line that runs on tracks through the city centre and then moves to a dedicated right of way outside of downtown with limited stations. It's single track for most of the way, but has the occasional passing track every few stations. Service was every 15 minutes but it looked like it could be run more frequently as we didn't pass another tram at each passing track. Something like this could relatively easily be implemented along the existing E&N right of way, with either a hybrid system that allows the vehicle to drive into downtown on the street for a loop before returning to the tracks or lay tracks down the road across wharf, Fort, Douglas & Pandora.

 

It's not out of the question.



#1249 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 04:55 PM

add another bus/hov lane on each side of the highway.  then put on those super buses they look nice.  easy.



#1250 RFS

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 04:56 PM

^something like those super busses could be easily implemented onto the Douglas St bus lanes. That makes the most sense.

#1251 Intercontinental

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 05:09 PM

The RD of Kitchener in Ontario is only 25% bigger than the CRD and opened a 20 km long LRT this past summer. I’ll bet they actually have fewer total transit riders than Vic.

#1252 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 05:12 PM

The RD of Kitchener in Ontario is only 25% bigger than the CRD and opened a 20 km long LRT this past summer. I’ll bet they actually have fewer total transit riders than Vic.

 

14000 riders a day.

 

https://en.wikipedia...n_rapid_transit

 

$868m price tag.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 16 October 2019 - 05:12 PM.


#1253 kenmuir

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 07:11 PM

There's not much seated capacity difference between our double deckers and the articulated buses.  There's a massive difference in the vehicle footprint though at 24m vs our 12m.  Trondheim's new double-articulated buses seat 51 passengers, the gain in capacity comes from an additional 91 passengers standing.  Our double deckers seat 76-84, but only have standing room for an additional 10-18 people.

 

I just wish we had more of the double deckers with a straight staircase rather than the curved one that I'm always worried I'll trip and break something.


Edited by kenmuir, 16 October 2019 - 07:22 PM.


#1254 vortoozo

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 07:45 PM

The problem with the deckers is you get a bottleneck with loading and unloading. The 24m busses have 4 doors. It's more efficient & gets the bus going much quicker at each stop. Like with the B line routes in Vancouver, you can board at any door if you have a pass. In Trondheim you can pay your fare using an app, using a vending machine at major stops or get tickets / daypasses at 7/11 and other local shops. The driver doesn't have to worry about collecting everyone's fare, so that gets things moving quicker too.


Edited by vortoozo, 16 October 2019 - 07:48 PM.


#1255 exc911ence

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 08:00 PM

Less dedicated bike lanes, more dedicated public transit lanes. 



#1256 FogPub

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 09:27 PM

^^Seattle.

Even the Skytrain extension into PoCo is at-grade, at least through town. Or was that Port Moody? Can’t remember where exactly I saw it running through town.

We must be talking about different things in Seattle then.  I'm talking about the rail system that runs from the University of Washington (north terminus*) south to Sea-Tac.  The north end of that - everything north of Pioneer Square - is entirely underground.  I'm not sure how far south the underground part extends beyond Pioneer Sq., as that's as far as I rode it.

 

* - until they finish the next station northwest of the campus, it's under construction now.



#1257 Mike K.

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 05:39 AM

Once you’re out of the transit tunnel you’re mostly at grade. Back when I last rode it the transit tunnel was the northern terminus.

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#1258 Ismo07

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 09:39 AM

Why is North America the benchmark here?
Just got back from a regional city in Norway - Trondheim - population 190K.

 

 

Because we are in N.A.  Cities were designed quite differently.

 

I'm excited to hear about the Kitchener run.  Where that money came from and on-going costs.  If it's the same size as Victoria (25% bigger is quite a difference) as someone mentioned what are current taxes and future taxes for it.  I still don't think you can compare Kitchener to here but I guess we are going to.

 

Hey I'm happy if it can work.  My guess is that they have a better lay out but I'm open to it.

 

PS looked into it a little more.. Oh yeah this is comparable to Victoria.  https://www.grt.ca/e...light-rail.aspx


Edited by Ismo07, 17 October 2019 - 09:42 AM.


#1259 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 10:01 AM

there is absolutely no good case to be made today for embarking on a new project that runs on rails.  rails will be absolutely obsolete in just 10-15 years at the most.  automated vehicles on a dedicated busway then just the street/highway itself is the very near future.

 

here is the waterloo history:

 

https://www.therecor...nd-manoeuvring/


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 17 October 2019 - 10:03 AM.


#1260 Ismo07

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 10:02 AM

 

They also have an older electric tram line that runs on tracks through the city centre and then moves to a dedicated right of way outside of downtown with limited stations. It's single track for most of the way, but has the occasional passing track every few stations. Service was every 15 minutes but it looked like it could be run more frequently as we didn't pass another tram at each passing track. Something like this could relatively easily be implemented along the existing E&N right of way, with either a hybrid system that allows the vehicle to drive into downtown on the street for a loop before returning to the tracks or lay tracks down the road across wharf, Fort, Douglas & Pandora.

 

It's not out of the question.

 

This part I love and I think some sort of hybrid device that can then go on to the roadway would be great.  I still think the tracks limit what can be done.  Still see this as a bus route into town in the mornings and out during the after work rush. 



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