717 replies to this topic

[piltdownman]

Personally I think this is a daft accusation. I'm finding it harder and harder to take these protesters seriously when they are unwilling to take any responsibility for their own actions or actions of their group. If they want me, joe public, to be sympathetic to their causes in any way they should be saying that they don't condone the marble throwing, not trying to blame it on others. While I'm guessing the organizers are not involved, when they promote mischief and invite people to join their cause they had better be ready to take some responsibility.

[Holden West]

Any protest where the public is encouraged to take part is going to attract the fringe troublemakers. Responsible organizers ensure their message stays credible by distancing themselves and discouraging stupid acts. In this age of Twitter (which the organizers were using during the march) there's no excuse for poor behaviour due to lack of communication.

No 2010 Victoria is a space to coordinate anti-colonial and anti-capitalist efforts against the 2010 Games within Victoria, Coast Salish Territories. Like in Vancouver, our organizing is based on the recognition that the Olympics is taking place on unceded Native land

Actually, First Nations for the most part are on board with the Games and see it as an opportunity to showcase their culture to the world. They don't take too kindly to a bunch of immature white kids putting words in their mouths.

[piltdownman]

^I was at the legislature friday morning and thought it was funny to see a bunch of grubby white youth yelling "Stolen Native Land" while the chiefs were taking place in the torch lighting ceremony. Made me think though, these people must surely live on this "Stolen Native Land" as well.

[spanky123]

I have participated in a number of protests and any time the media is involved it attracts a core group of loonies who seem to thrive on the attention.

I don't believe that anyone from Zoe's group would have been irresponsible enough to throw marbles. Having said that, I think that Zoe has discredited herself by stating in the media that she believes the police were involved when she had already left the event and has no proof to back up that claim.

[Holden West]

I don't believe that anyone from Zoe's group would have been irresponsible enough to throw marbles. Having said that, I think that Zoe has discredited herself by stating in the media that she believes the police were involved when she had already left the event and has no proof to back up that claim.

All Zoe had to do was simply say she had no knowledge of the marbles and whoever allegedly did it was being counterproductive and that the NO 2010 group does not condone actions that may lead to injury.

Made me think though, these people must surely live on this "Stolen Native Land" as well.

This is what I don't get. Yes, a century and a half ago or so, a bunch of London-financed Scotsmen beat out the Spaniards and Russians and Americans and successfully cheated local natives out of their land.

A raw deal for sure. But anytime two radically different cultures come together it's bound to end poorly for one.

So I would ask the protesters--what constructive act do you propose to right this wrong?

(cue the crickets...)

[Holden West]

Protesters damaged cause

The blockade of the route meant 10 people who had looked forward to participating in the relay lost their chance. Family and friends waiting for a truly once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to share that moment were cheated.

Certainly, the protests were directed in part at what participants considered great injustices. But those injustices weren't being perpetrated by the torch runners and their families. Stopping them didn't bring any greater attention or commitment to address the issues.

It just made the protesters -- or a small portion of them -- look self-indulgent, rude and foolish, like people playing at protest rather than attempting to raise important issues. And it could well have alienated many in Victoria and elsewhere who have reservations about the Olympics but cannot support attempted violence or the abrogation of the rights of others in the community.

[groundlevel]

No2010 is wrong about unceded Native land.

Almost the entire province of British Columbia is, according to British and Canadian law, the property of First Nations.

With the exception of two historical treaty areas -- the Douglas Treaty areas of southern Vancouver Island and Treaty 8 lands in north eastern B.C.
and
signed modern day treaties -- Nisgaa, etc.

The Douglas Treaties in Victoria mean all land is ceded EXCEPT portions of James Bay and Vic West which remain the lawful property of the Esquimalt and Songhees bands.
These bands and others (Tsooke etc) are right now engaged in modern day treaty negotiations. These negotiations are based on the Douglas Treaties (the treaties stand but land appropriated unlawfully is being looked at).

For most of my life, the Legislative Buildings were on unceded "stolen" land but in 2007 the province purchased them from the Esquimalt and Songhees nations for $31.5 million.

Holden West believes that 150 years ago Victoria lands were stolen by the Brits -- but in my opinion the smart, tough, marine peoples who were the local indigenous made an interesting deal in the 1850s.

I don't think these native maritime traders (who traded as far south as the Columbia River) were ignorant of Americans and American expansion and what it might mean to their interests (that is, Yankees had a bad reputation in theses parts in the early and mid 19th century).
This coast had already endured 3 devastating episodes of smallpox epidemics and most of the peoples no longer had robust populations.
and a trading post backed by British naval authority would have been an excellent thing -- generating wealth, trade with Haida and others.
I do not believe that the signators of the original Douglas Treaty were dummies or dupes.
Things didn't go as planned, history intervened, and their treaty lands were appropriated.
The original Treaty? Not such a bad deal.

and I wish people from Vancouver and Nova Scotia and other parts would learn local contact history and not sound like doofuses when they speak.

[victorian fan]

Times-Colonist Smears Olympics Activist, Retraction Demanded
Written by zoe blunt
Tuesday, 03 November 2009 15:53

http://www.pacificfr...n-demanded.html

I'm sure you realize your story claiming that members of No2010 Victoria accused police of using marbles as an act of provocation at Friday's march is a complete misrepresentation of our statements.

[...]

[spanky123]

Good for you Zoe and thanks for clearing this up.

[gumgum]

Hey, can you give me the contents of your bank account and credit card number? Please don't worry about how I spend it, it's not like I'm asking for the equity in your house. "Move on." Don't hold your breath.

How many times have the Olympics shown a net gain for the hosting communities?
see... .A post-Olympic hurdle for Greece: the whopping bill (Christian Science Monitor)
and... How the Olympics Destroy Cities

And it's not just the money... housing. (Centre on Housing Rights and Evictions) We've seen recently the introduction of a patently absurd law (mandatory sheltering in bad weather) that should give the police a convenient fig leaf to round up visually undesired elements.

I don't feel like expending my energy on protesting the Olympics, and I don't agree with all the tactics used, but I sure do understand why they would be protesting.

I'm a little late responding to this. I must have missed it.

I too understand why they protested. I'm actually very tangled in my own sense of ambivalence regarding this issue, although I can understand why this is not apparent in my previous post.
On the one hand - to say the least - our government is damaging an already broken system with regards to housing etc. And they have made a habit of sweeping much of the problems under the carpet for right on time for the Olympics.

I don't want to get into a never ending debate as to why the Olympics are good or bad for the region. And I'm not interested in a debate about government spending. I just think there ought to a balance -even though I see a clear imbalance on where our government focuses its energy right now.

I support the Olympics. And on a philosophical level I feel we should be spending money on bringing prosperity to the region. As well as money for housing.
I just feel most against the Olympics aren't open to the idea of distributing tax paying dollars to all facets. The people that I know that don't support the Olympics are also against money for tourism, corporate tax breaks, even grants for industry. They believe we should be giving pretty much everything toward social causes. I'm a lefty myself, but I know that just won't work. I'm not pigeon holing every anti-Olympic person. It's just my experience.

[Holden West]

I told you that I was NOT suggesting the police did such a thing. I said that we simply don't know who was responsible. When you asked directly, "Are you suggesting the police took this action?" I told you again, "I am NOT suggesting that the police were responsible." I did add that police have done similar things in the past.

You wrote, "We don't know who released the marbles ... but I am suggesting [police] have done similar things in the past."

By misrepresenting my statements, you have damaged my reputation, my relationship with law enforcement, and my integrity in the community.

I'm sorry--I may be dense and missing something but it doesn't seem like there's a lot of difference between what Blunt claims she said and what the TC reporter wrote. The headline was a little misleading unless the TC can show evidence some of the protesters made that accusation.

It appears the "Olympic torch protesters say police threw marbles at horses" story has been pulled from the TC and all Canwest news sources.

[Koru]

I have to agree with Holden there...


First Olympic Torch is up for sale on E-Bay - bidding is up at $2500 and another one is apparently on Craigslist for $2000

[VicHockeyFan]

I'm sorry--I may be dense and missing something but it doesn't seem like there's a lot of difference between what Blunt claims she said and what the TC reporter wrote. The headline was a little misleading unless the TC can show evidence some of the protesters made that accusation.

It appears the "Olympic torch protesters say police threw marbles at horses" story has been pulled from the TC and all Canwest news sources.

The TC printed a retraction today:

Protesters didn't say police threw marbles

Times Colonist
November 4, 2009

http://www.timescolo...2078/story.html

A story on page A4 yesterday said that organizers of a protest that disrupted the Olympic torch relay in Victoria on Friday blamed undercover police for marbles that were thrown at police horses during the event.

[...]

[Sue Woods]

The TC printed a retraction today:
[...]

I agree the heading was misleading so a retraction was called for.

But suggesting to a reporter that the police have done a similar thing in the past when exploring "blame" - in my view an implication against the police was made.

[piltdownman]

^I agree 100%. In fact, at least to me, the statement demanding a retraction shows an even further refusal to take any responsibility for ones actions. First with the marble incident itself, and then trying to take back what she clearly suggested.

[victorian fan]

TORCH PROTESTERS MAY FACE CHARGES
CFAX Nov 3, 2009
http://www.cfax1070....hp?newsId=11205


VICTORIA POLICE SAY SEVERAL DOZEN PROFESSIONAL AGITATORS WERE IN VICTORIA FOR ANTI OLYMPIC DEMONSTRATIONS LAST FRIDAY.

POLICE CHIEF JAMIE GRAHAM SAYS A SIZEABLE NUMBER--PERHAPS 50 OF THE PROTESTERS-- WERE NOT LOCAL. HE SAYS THEIR PROTESTS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OLYMPICS.
[...]

[piltdownman]

VICTORIA POLICE PAY HEFTY PRICE TAG FOR TORCH RELAY COMMUNICATIONS
CFAX Nov 4, 2009

60-THOUSAND DOLLARS IN ONE DAY----THATS WHAT THE VICTORIA POLICE DEPARTMENT SPENT ON THEIR COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEM ON DAY ONE OF THE TORCH RELAY

...

http://www.cfax1070....hp?newsId=11230

[Holden West]

Here's the relevant bits of the pulled article:

Torch protesters say police threw marbles at horses

Joanne Hatherly, Times Colonist: Tuesday, November 3, 2009

Anti-Olympic protesters say it was not them, but the police themselves, who threw marbles at police horses during the Olympic torch rally in Victoria Friday. They say a police "provocateur" planted among the demonstrators did so to discredit them.
---
[I take back what I said--this quote and the headline clearly do not match up with the organizer's other comments. Bad writing and/or editing on the part of the TC]
---
[...]

Tamara Herman, an organizer for the group No2010, said one of the protesters saw someone who was not part of their group drop marbles in the roadway.
---
[Second hand information. And how would they know the person was not one of "their" diverse group? I watched them pass by and followed them for a block or so and blended in to the ragged mass. Presumably an undercover agent would have done a better job of ingratiating themselves into the crowd. I doubt the 200+ mob (some of whom came from Vancouver) were all on a first name basis.]
---
Herman said she could not name the witness or offer other details. Nevertheless, she contends that a plainclothes police officer was trying to discredit the protesters.
---
[That's a bold accusation. Only Blunt defended her statement. I haven't seen Herman's defense of her more provocative quote]
---
"The Integrated Security Unit [responsible for Games security] stated they wouldn't rule out using provocateurs. Organizers at the back of the march saw someone they didn't recognize dropping a bag of marbles," Herman said.

Zoe Blunt, No2010 spokeswoman, also blamed plainclothes police officers. But Blunt said she went home at 6 p.m. Friday and did not witness the incident.

"We don't know who released the marbles ... but I am suggesting [police] have done similar things in the past," Blunt said.
---
There have been a couple of instances where ham-fisted Quebec cops infiltrated demonstrations dressed as protesters but their intent seemed to be intelligence gathering more than riot provocation or attempt to injure. And I find it beyond belief that even the most corrupt, right-wing fanatical cop would try to topple a mounted police officer. Sorry, it doesn't pass the sniff test.]

[piltdownman]

This is the article that was pulled from the Times Columnist, but still available through google cache

Torch protesters say police threw marbles at horses
Torch relay accusations 'absurd': officers
Joanne Hatherly, Times Colonist: Tuesday, November 3, 2009

Anti-Olympic protesters say it was not them, but the police themselves, who threw marbles at police horses during the Olympic torch rally in Victoria Friday. They say a police "provocateur" planted among the demonstrators did so to discredit them.

The police, meanwhile, say the allegation is ridiculous.

"The public saw marbles coming from the crowd -- and Victoria police officers saw it," said Sgt. Grant Hamilton of Victoria police.

Tamara Herman, an organizer for the group No2010, said one of the protesters saw someone who was not part of their group drop marbles in the roadway.

Herman said she could not name the witness or offer other details. Nevertheless, she contends that a plainclothes police officer was trying to discredit the protesters.

"The Integrated Security Unit [responsible for Games security] stated they wouldn't rule out using provocateurs. Organizers at the back of the march saw someone they didn't recognize dropping a bag of marbles," Herman said.

Zoe Blunt, No2010 spokeswoman, also blamed plainclothes police officers. But Blunt said she went home at 6 p.m. Friday and did not witness the incident.

"We don't know who released the marbles ... but I am suggesting [police] have done similar things in the past," Blunt said.

Victoria resident Becky Leonard was at the corner of Fairfield Road and Cook Street when she heard the marbles hit the ground. She said the marbles came from within the crowd of protesters.

"Did police throw them?," Leonard said. "Absolutely not."

Island RCMP spokesman Cpl. Darren Lagan said: "To suggest that officers would do something such as throwing marbles on the ground, which would jeopardize the safety of officers on motorcycles as well as those on horseback, is absurd."

Hamilton said, "To suggest we would agitate the crowd, why would we do that? It's absolutely absurd."

Jen Allen, spokeswoman for the Integrated Security Unit, said, "It is unfathomable to suggest that our officers would commit intentional acts aimed at injuring their fellow officers."

Protest organizers fretted that their message about public spending cuts has been drowned out by the outrage over the marble throwing.

"When we look at the larger picture, do we feel ashamed?" Blunt asked. "No, we're proud of what we did. I'm just sorry that some people don't get it."

jhatherly@tc.canwest.com

I understand that this post might be breaking forum rules, by posting articles in their entirety; however, since the Times Columnist no longer has it online, I know I wanted to read it all again, and thought others might want to as well. My apologies if it isn't. Again This Article was taken offline from the Times Colonist

[http]

...And I find it beyond belief that even the most corrupt, right-wing fanatical cop would try to topple a mounted police officer. Sorry, it doesn't pass the sniff test.]

I find it within belief. It has nothing to do with left/right or fanatical/moderate, and more to do with the nature of corruption. If a corrupt police officer wants a peaceful organization discredited, what better way than to make it look like that group endangers police officers?

Corrupt. Among other things, it means that integrity and esprit de corps mean nothing to them except in lip service. Because morals are by definition* absent, there is no limit to the atrocities that could be instigated.

I'm not trying to say they did it or didn't do it. Police officers are, by and large, an honest bunch, but I've seen some rather bad apples on occasion. Now that sousveillance is commonplace and youtube has taken off, you can see them too.

* wordnet 3.0, 2006.