527 replies to this topic

[Nparker]

In a motion put forward by Coun. Ben Isitt this week, it’s proposed that the city would amend the 2019-2022 Strategic Plan to “develop regulations to phase out commercial horse-drawn carriage operations on city streets by 2023, providing adequate notice to operators, employees and members of the public.”

Just one more reason for me to despise this man.

Edited by Nparker, 13 May 2019 - 04:04 PM.

[RFS]

Infuriating. Downtown Victoria has a lot of problems right now. Horse drawn carriages are not one of them.

[Midnightly]

^{why oh why do they keep ignoring the bigger issues and only wanting to deal with the fluff stuff.. yes i get that the bigger issues are harder to deal with then the fluff but it's your job to deal with the bigger issues plaguing this city! get your house in order before working on the minor details...}

[Mike K.]

I can see a class action lawsuit coming over this, if the motion is supported and the City pursues this route.

[Cassidy]

Why do some people insist on putting human emotions onto animals?

 

I've owned a dog (save the mandatory year or two mourning period after each passes) non-stop since I was a little kid. I'm 62 now.

One thing I learned many decades ago is that a dog doesn't experience human emotions. A dog experiences dog emotions, all based on pack behaviour. (And don't get me wrong, I love my dogs - even though they love me back for a very different reason than why I love them).

 

The horses that pull carriages are draught animals, bred to "pull things". They don't "love" pulling things, nor do they "hate" pulling things. They just pull things because that's what they were bred to do.

They're not people, and pulling things isn't "work" to them ... it's instinctual behaviour bred into them over centuries.

What draught horses really like is to be fed, watered, brushed, and to experience human interaction with their handlers simply because most breeds of horses aren't loners, they prefer to associate in groups whether those groups consist of people, other horses, or a combination of both.

 

I get that these "anti draught horse" folks are projecting the concept of "horse-rights" onto these animals, and that Isitt is pandering to his base by putting forth the optic that he believes that all living things must be "free"... but in many ways sticking draught horses into a farmers field, and retiring them from doing what they were bred to do may very well be more damaging to the horses psyche than pulling a carriage around town in return for a bag of oats and a drink of water.

 

Because a draught horse pulling a carriage around in return for a bag of oats and a drink of water is living exactly the life his well developed horse brain tells him is the perfect life for him.

[Victoria Watcher]

agree

[Nparker]

...Isitt is pandering to his base by putting forth the optic that he believes all living things must be "free"...

This. 

[North Shore]

Likewise, there should be a ban on Border Collies. They are sheep herding dogs that are bred to run and herd all day, not languish in some Fairfield loft/condo, waiting for Mackenzie and Charlotte to come home and give them a walk down to the Cook Street coffee shops..

[Cassidy]

Likewise, there should be a ban on Border Collies. They are sheep herding dogs that are bred to run and herd all day, not languish in some Fairfield loft/condo, waiting for Mackenzie and Charlotte to come home and give them a walk down to the Cook Street coffee shops..

Another perfect example!

 

Border Collies literally live to work hard for their owners. In fact owners will tell you that the more you can work your Collie, the happier and more well adjusted they are.

Like a draught horse, Border Collies don't consider running around to be "exercise" or "work", with both of those being human constructs. 

Border Collies consider running around for hours on end to be their reason for existence ... with their well developed dog brains telling them that what they're doing is exactly what they're supposed to be doing ... likely in return for a biscuit and a pat on the head.

 

I would posit that dogs, like horses -most definitely don't want SJW do-gooders like Ben Isitt advocating to take away the very thing they were bred to do!

Edited by Cassidy, 13 May 2019 - 07:38 PM.

[Tom Braybrook]

Why do some people insist on putting human emotions onto animals?

 

I've owned a dog (save the mandatory year or two mourning period after each passes) non-stop since I was a little kid. I'm 62 now.

One thing I learned many decades ago is that a dog doesn't experience human emotions. A dog experiences dog emotions, all based on pack behaviour. (And don't get me wrong, I love my dogs - even though they love me back for a very different reason than why I love them).

 

The horses that pull carriages are draught animals, bred to "pull things". They don't "love" pulling things, nor do they "hate" pulling things. They just pull things because that's what they were bred to do.

They're not people, and pulling things isn't "work" to them ... it's instinctual behaviour bred into them over centuries.

What draught horses really like is to be fed, watered, brushed, and to experience human interaction with their handlers simply because most breeds of horses aren't loners, they prefer to associate in groups whether those groups consist of people, other horses, or a combination of both.

 

I get that these "anti draught horse" folks are projecting the concept of "horse-rights" onto these animals, and that Isitt is pandering to his base by putting forth the optic that he believes that all living things must be "free"... but in many ways sticking draught horses into a farmers field, and retiring them from doing what they were bred to do may very well be more damaging to the horses psyche than pulling a carriage around town in return for a bag of oats and a drink of water.

 

Because a draught horse pulling a carriage around in return for a bag of oats and a drink of water is living exactly the life his well developed horse brain tells him is the perfect life for him.

...https://www.youtube....h?v=p-iJB9HtlGQ... a song for the horses, although i much prefer garnet rogers vrsion on his album "the outside track"...

[Rob Randall]

Another perfect example!

 

Border Collies literally live to work hard for their owners. In fact owners will tell you that the more you can work your Collie, the happier and more well adjusted they are.

Like a draught horse, Border Collies don't consider running around to be "exercise" or "work", with both of those being human constructs. 

Border Collies consider running around for hours on end to be their reason for existence ... with their well developed dog brains telling them that what they're doing is exactly what they're supposed to be doing ... likely in return for a biscuit and a pat on the head.

 

I would posit that dogs, like horses -most definitely don't want SJW do-gooders like Ben Isitt advocating to take away the very thing they were bred to do!

 

 

It's a supply and demand issue. If we banned our horses, they would likely be relocated and no further horses would be bred for the local market. The overall number of draft horses here would shrink. There might be some bored horses in the short term but the market eventually adapts.

 

Victorian farmers used to use oxen to plow their fields before the tractor arrived. I doubt we had much of a bored oxen problem for very long after that.

 

Edited by Rob Randall, 14 May 2019 - 06:07 AM.

[Mike K.]

There’s a lot of horses out my way and I’ve gotten to know a few folks with stables. A horse, they say, is literally a life-long commitment as they require human interaction, purpose and plenty of vigorous exercise ... for 30+ years, with the average age being a quarter century old before it goes after the big, tasty oats in horse heaven.

They also get attached to their caretakers and a special bond is created between those individuals, and as anyone with a pet knows, that bond is tremendously hard to break.

So what do you do with a dozen horses which are now unable to work, attached to their owners, and are an odd-20 years away from retirement? Send them off to another carriage company? Because that would really solve the issue, wouldn’t it? Or is out of sight, out of mind the goal here.

[Rob Randall]

^Well, I don't know, that's a good question. But I don't think it means we are stuck with work horses indefinitely. There could be a long phase-out program that starts with halting the local breeding of draft horses. I'm not taking a side in this, I'm just saying it's logistically and humanely possible.

[Mike K.]

Me neither. No stake in this battle.

But the planned phase out by 2023 appears less about the well-being/best interests of the horses and more about politics, as by the fall of 2022 the next election will have happened and a horse ban coming into effect months later would not be a bad political point if that’s what one’s supporters want to see.

[Rob Randall]

^You can't honestly say the ban is not about what's best for horses. That video of the horses struggling to get up off the slippery pavement was distressing. That was the incident that triggered the latest round of debate. I can't see any political gain as it's a controversial and divisive topic. 

[mbjj]

As long as the horses are well-treated and possible dangerous situations avoided, keep the horses. I regularly see programs from the UK about the effort to save large breeds of horses from extinction because the demand for them has dropped. Many breeds are not that far from disappearing. I wish the same could be said of Isitt.

[Mike K.]

^You can't honestly say the ban is not about what's best for horses. That video of the horses struggling to get up off the slippery pavement was distressing. That was the incident that triggered the latest round of debate. I can't see any political gain as it's a controversial and divisive topic. 

 

The bi-polar state of our region on the issues of animal welfare is more distressing than the extremely rare instance of a horse injury in downtown Victoria. Consider that instead of relocating urban deer in our community, many of which are struck and killed or seriously injured by vehicles (and left to die incredibly painful deaths who knows how many days or weeks later), we bend over backwards to accommodate them despite the dangers of them living wild in a busy city.

 

If we really want what's best for animals, we should be relocating deer into the woods. And no, our urban footprint is not endangering their homes. That argument is itself a pile of nonsense.

[tedward]

^You can't honestly say the ban is not about what's best for horses. That video of the horses struggling to get up off the slippery pavement was distressing. That was the incident that triggered the latest round of debate. I can't see any political gain as it's a controversial and divisive topic. 

 

Right, because horses never fall in the wild or experience traumatic events. What is the average life-span of a horse in the wild versus in service? Being fed and sheltered and groomed and worked is worse than foraging in the open and being hunted how?

[spanky123]

As long as the horses are well-treated and possible dangerous situations avoided, keep the horses. I regularly see programs from the UK about the effort to save large breeds of horses from extinction because the demand for them has dropped. Many breeds are not that far from disappearing. I wish the same could be said of Isitt.

 

I think that the standard needs to be based on the expected, day to day treatment of the animal rather than a random incident. Heck every day dogs are injured being walked by their owners because a bicycle, deer, or car got in the way yet nobody is talking about banning dogs from walks.

 

Unfortunately though I can see this motion passing. The average resident would never use the service and wouldn't shed a tear if wealthy tourists are denied it.

Edited by spanky123, 14 May 2019 - 08:11 AM.

[Midnightly]

they are trying to take away one of the few touristy items we have left.. over the very few incidents that happen.. there are more car crashes, people hit by cars, or even bike crashes downtown in 1 yr then there are incidents with horse and carriage in the past 5.. there are more bikes stolen in one week downtown then there are horse carriage incidents in the last 10yrs.. yet we're not dealing with that...  it's the whole banning straws around the world because 1 sea turtle had one up it's nose..

 

and the sad thing is.. this council will side with him..

 

i could be wrong but doesn't the city pay for and fully support the free horse drawn carriage that does a loop through downtown every christmas?

Edited by Midnightly, 14 May 2019 - 01:06 PM.