223 replies to this topic

[RFS]

I would expect the kind of behavior she has been accused of from any Conservative Party member(for example) not a Green Party member.

Welcome to the real world

The anecdotal evidence is pretty funny. That said May does kind of have the look of someone who could fly off the handle over nothing. Like mulcair

[Love the rock]

Mean ,green ,working machine .

[Old Esquimalt]

It's more that we as a society continue to judge people against gendered standards. Women are expected to be many things, including docile, humble, slim, beautiful, gracious, motherly, etc. Any time a woman acts in a way that is antithetical to this image, she gets attacked by the press (see all the headlines about Hilary Clinton being frumpy or shrewish). Historically, men have been less likely to be called out on bullying-type behaviours because the image we have of manliness praises so many of these behaviours (consider the "locker room talk" of Donald Trump).

 

This hurts men, too. If you listen to the rhetoric of a lot of the young "alt-right," you'll hear them using terms like "cuck" and "beta." The implication is that men who don't fit into the traditional alpha-male role are somehow lesser.

 

None of this means that we can't call out Elizabeth May on her alleged behaviour. But it does mean that when we are calling politicians out on their behaviour, we need to mindful about whether the behaviour is really harmful (shouting at employees), or whether it's just outside of our conceptions of gender (a woman having a strong opinion, a man crying, etc.) We also need to be more willing to call out male politicians on their bullying.

You came through some kind of time portal perhaps?
 

 

Women are expected to be many things, including docile, humble, slim, beautiful, gracious, motherly, etc. Any time a woman acts in a way that is antithetical to this image, she gets attacked by the press

 

 

Actually, I'd like to see a single female character presented in the popular media who is most of those things and who is not presented simply in order to ridicule her as a "trad" weakling who needs to "grow a pair", as locker room lingo puts it.

 

From Wonder Woman to Powrr-Grrl - or however it's spelled - most models I see applaud girls and women who manifest stereotypically male characteristics. 

 

The only more common meme in advertising and popular media is the ridiculing and demeaning of men: this schtick is so predictable now it is as much tedious as insulting.  It must still be popular with a lot of women as so many advertisers continue to use it as their default. 

 

"Happy wife, happy life", a very popular phrase these days.  "You either cater to me or I'll make sure your life isn't happy."  So much for "equality". So much for a partnership of equal effort.  "Make me happy or I'll take you to the cleaners"?  Happier without maybe. 

 

As for Hilary Clinton, "shrew" hardly begins to describe her; do some research on her and her husband.

 

Ms. May in my opinion has a personality that clashes with what she thinks, or wants us to think, are her values.  We all have lapses, and if we are suitably and sincerely apologetic, we deserve to be forgiven.  If we deny, distort, blame others or otherwise refuse to come clean, something more profound is going on.

 

Some people on both the left and the right seem to think that their opinions rather than their behaviors are the measure of their characters.  This self-excusal they often extend to those public figures they agree with ideologically.

 

When we refuse to condemn, or attempt to excuse, in our ideological allies what we would condemn in those we are opposed to, we are merely demonstrating personal and intellectual dishonesty.

 

Bad manners are bad manners, period.

Edited by Old Esquimalt, 31 January 2018 - 01:13 PM.

[rjag]

Some people on both the left and the right seem to think that their opinions rather than their behaviors are the measure of their characters.  This self-excusal they often extend to those public figures they agree with ideologically.

 

When we refuse to condemn, or attempt to excuse, in our ideological allies what we would condemn in those we are opposed to, we are merely demonstrating personal and intellectual dishonesty.

 

Bad manners are bad manners, period.

 

 

 

^ This!!!

 

Being a jerk or a bully or a sex predator is not the exclusive domain of any one particular sociological or political ideology. Every camp has glaring examples.

 

However what I see in Parliament and elsewhere is the left are quick to make excuses for behaviour ie Elizabeth May https://www.ctvnews....ation-1.3780205 or even Trudeaus double standard comments about Hehr https://globalnews.ca/news/3995778/justin-trudeau-kent-hehr-allegations/ that would be condemned if it was outside of these circles

Edited by rjag, 31 January 2018 - 01:47 PM.

[jonny]

Elizabeth May is not a successful politician. It's no surprise that she is an unsuccessful boss / colleague as well. She is well past her best before date. 

[RFS]

It's more that we as a society continue to judge people against gendered standards. Women are expected to be many things, including docile, humble, slim, beautiful, gracious, motherly, etc. Any time a woman acts in a way that is antithetical to this image, she gets attacked by the press (see all the headlines about Hilary Clinton being frumpy or shrewish). Historically, men have been less likely to be called out on bullying-type behaviours because the image we have of manliness praises so many of these behaviours (consider the "locker room talk" of Donald Trump).

This hurts men, too. If you listen to the rhetoric of a lot of the young "alt-right," you'll hear them using terms like "cuck" and "beta." The implication is that men who don't fit into the traditional alpha-male role are somehow lesser.

None of this means that we can't call out Elizabeth May on her alleged behaviour. But it does mean that when we are calling politicians out on their behaviour, we need to mindful about whether the behaviour is really harmful (shouting at employees), or whether it's just outside of our conceptions of gender (a woman having a strong opinion, a man crying, etc.) We also need to be more willing to call out male politicians on their bullying.

Yeah this is pure fantasy at this point. In fact the pendulum has swung so far the opposite is true

[FirstTimeHomeCrier]

Yeah this is pure fantasy at this point. In fact the pendulum has swung so far the opposite is true

 

I'd like a ticket to whatever world you're living in.

[spanky123]

I put ZERO value in the retorts commenting on "how nice she was to me" ... which is a typical response aimed at diminishing those claims currently put on the table by her ex-employees.

These "feel good" retorts are a typical response to these kinds of accusations (even if they're true, they mean absolutely nothing).

 

 

How many times over the years did we hear ... "he is such a nice guy, fun to be around, great to party with ... can't believe that he beats his wife". How someone portrays themselves in public often does not reflect how they treat those close to them or who they have power over.

[Rob Randall]

I haven't heard anything said about May that was as bad as what was said about David Suzuki (entitled behaviour, temper tantrums). I'm not sure why allegations about Suzuki haven't caught fire like May's. 

[Cassidy]

How many times over the years did we hear ... "he is such a nice guy, fun to be around, great to party with ... can't believe that he beats his wife". How someone portrays themselves in public often does not reflect how they treat those close to them or who they have power over.

Indeed, that's exactly what they're saying about Bruce McArthur, Toronto's new serial killer.

"Great guy, sweet to his grandkids, and a hard worker"

 

And what? ... they're up to 5 confirmed bodies to date, with 3 unconfirmed - and a heavy suspicion that they'll find more as they look around.

 

She's is a "nice" person means absolutely nothing beyond one other person in the world thinks (but doesn't actually know) somebody is "nice".

[Cassidy]

I haven't heard anything said about May that was as bad as what was said about David Suzuki (entitled behaviour, temper tantrums). I'm not sure why allegations about Suzuki haven't caught fire like May's. 

Not that it's appropriate, or that I agree with it ... but I believe most Canadians hold politicians to a higher standard than they do CBC TV hosts.

 

Too, I can't recall anybody saying Suzuki was bullying or manipulative to his staff (I could have missed it though), only that he was an complete and utter a_s-hole to every stranger who ever tried to say "hello" to him at an airport, event, or simply walking down the sidewalk.

 

Being an a-hole to everybody you meet is different (presumably) than manipulating, belittling, or otherwise behaving badly towards the people who work for you.

 

It's the using of your senior position of authority as leverage that is being punished currently, but if things keep going as they are ... perhaps Suzuki and his ilk will have to start being polite to their fans, rather than letting fans know they're nothing more than leeches and lepers as far as you're (Suzuki) is concerned.

[Old Esquimalt]

I haven't heard anything said about May that was as bad as what was said about David Suzuki (entitled behaviour, temper tantrums). I'm not sure why allegations about Suzuki haven't caught fire like May's. 

 

So you haven't seen the "Saint Suzuki" email then?  I think it has had pretty wide distribution.

 

Probably the reason he hasn't been tackled is no one has come forward with direct accusations of misconduct.  The creepy "college girls as bodyguards" thing was only creepy and hypocritical. But since he's a progressive we have to be understanding don't we?  For the good of the cause and all?

 

Elizabeth May, would have gotten an extension to her free pass from the Press Club dinner, and all these other little reported incidents that are coming to light, were it not for the fact that her accusers are all female.  Not to be discounted quite so easily as Mariah Cary's bodyguard(s).

 

"All pigs are equal, but some are more equal than others."  George Orwell.

Edited by Old Esquimalt, 31 January 2018 - 05:51 PM.

[nagel]

I'd like a ticket to whatever world you're living in.

Not many airports in Alabama you might have to make do with a Greyhound ticket.

[Mike K.]

“Unless you are part of the "family" or inner circle, the [local grocery chain] can treat their staff horribly. There was a disturbing case of a [local grocery chain] manager, a middle-aged woman, who was habitually bullying a young teenage girl. It got so bad that her parent threatened to sue the [local grocery chain]. Their response was to move the bully to another location where she was effectively given a promotion. This manager has at least four family members as co-workers and seems very popular with ownership.”

This comment was posted to Victoria’s reddit page. I can’t speak to the veracity of the claim, but what I want to highlight here is bad people, bullies and tyrants exist in all walks of life, male and female.

[Mike K.]

I'd like a ticket to whatever world you're living in.

 

Surely you've seen commercials on TV where the man is projected as a loser, dummy, thick-headed buffoon or "just dad being dad?"

 

Sexism exists in advertising, but the degree to which men have been depicted as idiots in modern television advertising is shocking.

[FirstTimeHomeCrier]

Surely you've seen commercials on TV where the man is projected as a loser, dummy, thick-headed buffoon or "just dad being dad?"

 

Sexism exists in advertising, but the degree to which men have been depicted as idiots in modern television advertising is shocking.

 

Absolutely, and that actually supports my argument that both men and women are held up to gendered tropes. One of the tropes for men is the stupid, boorish Dad. You'll probably also notice that these commercials tend to feature a wife who is an attractive, intelligent super-woman. On the surface, that might look like a good thing for women. But the reality is that women are human and very few women can live up to Wonder Woman standards at every moment in their life. Any time a famous or semi-famous woman is caught being even slightly less than perfect, it's front page news.

 

I'm not saying that men don't suffer under these gendered tropes. One great example that comes up a lot in these conversations is custody disputes. We have an image of men as incompetent parents, and I think there are probably a number of great dads who lost out on custody because the accepted image of men is that they are worse parents than women. This is a gendered trope that cuts both ways, since it also demands that mothers put in more effort as parents than their male partners or be labelled as a failure.

 

I think a common misconception that comes up any time there is discussion of gender inequality, sexism, or male privilege is the idea that these things are only damaging to women or that they mean every man is always better off than women. What it really means is that in certain avenues, most men have a leg up over most women. Within other avenues, it may be different. What complicates matters is that the avenues that men tend to have an advantage in are often the avenues that have been historically associated with moral, intellectual, and or physical superiority (becoming president, excelling at contact sports, getting your books published, owning a business, etc.).

 

It's also important to understand that there are social structures that have existed for hundreds to thousands of years that are upholding some of these gendered advantages. It's going to take a great deal of very challenging work to dismantle these systems to the point where we are seeing equity between genders. I appreciate that there are times when the work we have to do might feel like a personal attack for some men. You may have heard the phrase "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

[Mike K.]

Well said, FTHC.

 

The only point I take exception with is the "You may have heard the phrase 'When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression'" line of thinking. Oppressing someone so that someone else isn't oppressed or so someone from a background of "privilege" (perceived privilege is still fair game) is purposefully made to feel oppressed or is differentiated in a negative way is an unfortunate way of thinking and gives rise to stupidity like college campuses denying event access to white people or local event organizers charging white people more to enter a premises.

[VicHockeyFan]

I think a common misconception that comes up any time there is discussion of gender inequality, sexism, or male privilege is the idea that these things are only damaging to women or that they mean every man is always better off than women. What it really means is that in certain avenues, most men have a leg up over most women. Within other avenues, it may be different. What complicates matters is that the avenues that men tend to have an advantage in are often the avenues that have been historically associated with moral, intellectual, and or physical superiority (becoming president, excelling at contact sports, getting your books published, owning a business, etc.).

 

It's also important to understand that there are social structures that have existed for hundreds to thousands of years that are upholding some of these gendered advantages. It's going to take a great deal of very challenging work to dismantle these systems to the point where we are seeing equity between genders. I appreciate that there are times when the work we have to do might feel like a personal attack for some men. You may have heard the phrase "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

 

But also consider that even in the most egalitarian societies, women and men most often - not always, but most often - want different things still.  That's why in Sweden, most brand new nurses are still women, and most engineers are still men.

Edited by VicHockeyFan, 01 February 2018 - 01:32 PM.

[spanky123]

Well said, FTHC.

 

The only point I take exception with is the "You may have heard the phrase 'When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression'" line of thinking. Oppressing someone so that someone else isn't oppressed or so someone from a background of "privilege" (perceived privilege is still fair game) is purposefully made to feel oppressed or is differentiated in a negative way is an unfortunate way of thinking and gives rise to stupidity like college campuses denying event access to white people or local event organizers charging white people more to enter a premises.

 

Funny thing is that few people actually think of themselves as "privileged". There is always another group that they can look to and see benefits that they do not get. 

[rjag]

It's also important to understand that there are social structures that have existed for hundreds to thousands of years that are upholding some of these gendered advantages. It's going to take a great deal of very challenging work to dismantle these systems to the point where we are seeing equity between genders. I appreciate that there are times when the work we have to do might feel like a personal attack for some men. You may have heard the phrase "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

 

Not sure why there is such a sudden need to dismantle  whatever system you think needs dismantling. Can you give an example of 'equity through gender' that you arent seeing? We have female firefighters, front line military, police, doctors, astronauts, prime ministers and premiers, ceo's etc....with the exception of merit or a particular skill, there are very few doors closed if any, I dont see what this 'thing' that needs dismantling. How about womens only fitness clubs?

 

Apart from physical attributes either through strength and/or plumbing all doors are open. Men cant give birth, and for that I'm most thankful!!! 

 

My wife has multiple degrees and is a successful professional, my daughter is finishing her degree and is currently flying to the UK to interview for a very good university for her Masters. Nobody is getting in their way.....

Edited by rjag, 01 February 2018 - 03:55 PM.