223 replies to this topic

[jonny]

There’s a difference between equality of opportunity (which we should continue to strive for) and equality of outcome (i.e. Trudeau’s gender neutral cabinet, which included wholly unqualified female cabinet ministers like Monsef solely because it was “fair”).

 

From my observation, in Canada, we are close to having equality of opportunity. By and large, women are not held back at all. 

[rjag]

What does it say for the candidate that is eminently qualified for the job, but they are passed over for someone less qualified simply due to different physical plumbing? What does it say for the person that does get the job? Do they question whether they got it through merit and being the best candidate or was it to make up a quota? What type of message does that send?

[FirstTimeHomeCrier]

Not sure why there is such a sudden need to dismantle  whatever system you think needs dismantling. Can you give an example of 'equity through gender' that you arent seeing? We have female firefighters, front line military, police, doctors, astronauts, prime ministers and premiers, ceo's etc....with the exception of merit or a particular skill, there are very few doors closed if any, I dont see what this 'thing' that needs dismantling. How about womens only fitness clubs?

 

Apart from physical attributes either through strength and/or plumbing all doors are open. Men cant give birth, and for that I'm most thankful!!! 

 

My wife has multiple degrees and is a successful professional, my daughter is finishing her degree and is currently flying to the UK to interview for a very good university for her Masters. Nobody is getting in their way.....

 

Let me throw some numbers at you:

 

Canadian Politics

(via CBC)

 

As of the 2015 election, women held 26% of seats in the House of Commons.

 

U.S. Politics

(via CAWP)

 

As of 2018, women make up:

 

19.8 % of Congress

22 % of the Senate

19.3 % of the House

12 % of state governors

21 % of city mayors (pop. over 30,000)

 

(And to date, women make up 0% of U.S. presidents)

 

Hollywood:

(via San Diego State University)

 

For the top 250 films of 2017, women comprised:

 

11% of directors

25% of producers

11% of writers

4 % of cinematographers

 

88% of these top 250 films had no women directors, and 83% had no women writers.

 

Business

(via Center for American Progress)

 

Within the S&P 500, women account for

 

44% of the total labour force

36% of first- or middle-level managers

25% of executive or senior level managers and officials

20% of board seats

6% of CEOs

 

Within U.S. high-tech companies in 2014, women comprise only 20% of executives, senior officers, and management. 43% of the top earning companies in Silicon valley had no women executives.

 

Sexual violence and assualt

(via Status of Women in Canada)

 

According to police-reported data, women made up 90% of the victims of sexual assault in 2012.

Men are the perpetrators of 87% of cases of sexual violence against men or women, and 99% of cases of sexual violence against women.

 

Poverty

(via the National Women's Law Centre)

 

Women working full-time, year-round earn just 80 cents for every dollar made by their male counterparts.

Women make up 63% of the elderly poor.

Women are 1.38 times more likely to live in poverty than men.

 

 

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm glad that your wife and daughter have had great success, but your anecdotal evidence does not contradict statistics. 

[VicHockeyFan]

Woman gravitate generally to the professions like nursing and medical more so than men. There are more female doctor grads than men. Overwhelming they decide to take up teaching. There are almost zero men in day care jobs. It’s just the way most - not all - women are wired. What’s wrong with that? It’s just the way it is.

Edited by VicHockeyFan, 01 February 2018 - 06:25 PM.

[rjag]

so do you want to mandate 50% of all movies must have 50% female cast, and productions 50% of the time? Do you want to mandate 50% of all seats at all times in political office must go to women? How does a quota system make the women who attain these positions feel?

 

You ignored my comment about how we have had women PM and premiers, astronauts and other very high profile positions. 

 

So I will ask this question of you....do you believe there should be a Law that requires a direct proportion of all sexes, cultures, skin colours etc in all jobs all the time? 

 

to continue what VHF states, 76% of teachers are females 56% hold a Masters or higher. 97.7% of Kindergarten teachers are Female....what does that do for gender stereotyping? According to the US census 91% of Nurses are Female

 

Physician mix

• 52% are family physicians; 48% are specialists of other disciplines.
• 40% (32,883) are aged 55 or older.
• 41% are female; 59% are male. Two thirds (64%) of family physicians under age 35 are female.

 

 

The American Physical Therapy Association (APTA) has over 72,000 members in its organization and provides many statistics and information about the industry. According to APTA, nearly 70 percent of its members are women and about 74 percent of all licensed physical therapists are women. Based on enrollment numbers in the estimated 209 physical therapy programs throughout the United States, women outnumber men in educational programs to become licensed practitioners by the same amount--about 3-to-1. In the 2007-2008 academic year, total enrollment was 20,193, with 14,418 being women.

 

Sure there are professions where more males than females, oil rig workers, engineers etc

 

More females enrolled in US law schools in 2016 than males

 

Those are statistics....you simply cant cherry pick to suit your beliefs, sure there are fields that are more dominant one way or another, that doesnt mean its a closed door policy, it just means more men than women enter such a field or vice versa.

[VicHockeyFan]

Clearly we need programs to fight the exclusion men feel in the kindergarten teaching profession. There MUST be barriers to entry for men, how else can it be explained.

Not a lot of male midwives either. Let’s get to the bottom of that.

[rjag]

Let me throw some numbers at you:

 

Canadian Politics

(via CBC)

 

As of the 2015 election, women held 26% of seats in the House of Commons.

 

 

 

as for that number.....Almost 1,800 candidates representing 23 different parties will be vying for Canadians's votes when they go to the polls on Oct. 19.

And about one third of those candidates are women — a small 1.5 percentage point increase over the 2011 election.

Looks like the numbers balanced out....Want more representation? Run more candidates that voters will think can do the job...its not the plumbing that folks vote for but the party, the person and how they sell themselves

[Old Esquimalt]

 

 

Prof. Jordan Peterson of U of T says the wage gap is a falsehood statistically.  

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=aMcjxSThD54

 

He has 150 or so videos on Youtube.  Well worth watching for those who enjoy factual information rather than the bottle-feeding their prejudices or emotional preference for victimhood.

 

Anyone who has had children will have noticed how very young children, long before any socialization can occur, manifest very clear ideas about gender roles and very clear preferences, in the vast majority of cases.

 

Nothing is going to change the biological realities, the sexes are not the same, they never have been and they never will be.  The choice then, like the choice between other groups in this world, is whether we will seek confrontation with each other, or whether we will act with honesty and sincerity and a genuine effort to see the other side.  History shows that the confrontation model doesn't end well, though with some groups it is inevitable: they refuse to learn any other way.

Edited by Old Esquimalt, 01 February 2018 - 10:07 PM.

[VicHockeyFan]

Prof. Jordan Peterson of U of T says the wage gap is a falsehood statistically.  

 

He has 150 or so videos on Youtube.  Well worth watching for those who enjoy factual information rather than the bottle-feeding their prejudices or emotional preferences.

 

He never says it's a falsehood.  He agrees 100% that it's real.  But he says there are multiple reasons behind it, not the simplistic implication that the lower earner is female, and is thus paid less because of her gender.

 

CHANNEL 4 video

 

Edited by VicHockeyFan, 01 February 2018 - 10:06 PM.

[Rob Randall]

Clearly we need programs to fight the exclusion men feel in the kindergarten teaching profession. There MUST be barriers to entry for men, how else can it be explained.

 

I was fired without cause from my kindergarten teaching job; apparently taking my beer cans to the bottle depot is "not an approved field trip activity" according to a bunch of namby-pambies.

[Old Esquimalt]

 

He never says it's a falsehood.  He agrees 100% that it's real.  But he says there are multiple reasons behind it, not the simplistic implication that the lower earner is female, and is thus paid less because of her gender.

 

I hope it was obvious that when I say it is a falsehood, that refers to the assertion that there a wage gap based on prejudice or discrimination, rather than the logical causes he describes.

 

And since there is, at least in our society, no wage gap based on prejudice or discrimination (obviously with occasional individual exceptions, which should be rectified when detected), there is really no point in speaking about it all as a social phenomenon, since it is of no importance if it is not based on prejudice, discrimination or some other unfair or unreasonable action.  To do so merely perpetuates the falsehood since the vast majority of those who hear the term automatically assume it refers to and is due to "systemic" discrimination.

Edited by Old Esquimalt, 01 February 2018 - 10:23 PM.

[rjag]

If it was true that women earned less than men for doing the same job and producing the same output, then wouldn’t it follow that more women would be in the workforce, women would be able to get more work than men and more men would be unemployed?

[VicHockeyFan]

Yes it does follow, what employer would not want to save 8 or 9% on labour costs for the same outcome?

[dasmo]

“Anyone who has had children will have noticed how very young children, long before any socialization can occur, manifest very clear ideas about gender roles and very clear preferences, in the vast majority of cases.”
I’ve observed the opposite.... But I have only observed a small sampling of the global population.

[Old Esquimalt]

“Anyone who has had children will have noticed how very young children, long before any socialization can occur, manifest very clear ideas about gender roles and very clear preferences, in the vast majority of cases.”
I’ve observed the opposite.... But I have only observed a small sampling of the global population.

Isn't that funny.  I'll have to keep my eyes open for little boys pushing strollers and carrying dolls.

 

Or is there some mystical nirvana somewhere where all kids have suits of pink and blue and wear them on alternate days?    The real question of course is why any sentient adult would think that was an ideal to be pursued?

 

In the meantime, surely we should do something about the gross gender inequality in the animal world: stags collecting "harems", hens forced to sit on eggs, etc. etc.  Something must be done!  To the barricades comrades!

Edited by Old Esquimalt, 02 February 2018 - 07:24 AM.

[Mike K.]

I dunno, my mom loved playing with my grandpa’s tools when she was a kid. To each his/her own, I guess.

[spanky123]

Let me throw some numbers at you:

 

Canadian Politics

(via CBC)

 

As of the 2015 election, women held 26% of seats in the House of Commons.

 

U.S. Politics

(via CAWP)

 

As of 2018, women make up:

 

19.8 % of Congress

22 % of the Senate

19.3 % of the House

12 % of state governors

21 % of city mayors (pop. over 30,000)

 

(And to date, women make up 0% of U.S. presidents)

 

Hollywood:

(via San Diego State University)

 

For the top 250 films of 2017, women comprised:

 

11% of directors

25% of producers

11% of writers

4 % of cinematographers

 

88% of these top 250 films had no women directors, and 83% had no women writers.

 

Business

(via Center for American Progress)

 

Within the S&P 500, women account for

 

44% of the total labour force

36% of first- or middle-level managers

25% of executive or senior level managers and officials

20% of board seats

6% of CEOs

 

Within U.S. high-tech companies in 2014, women comprise only 20% of executives, senior officers, and management. 43% of the top earning companies in Silicon valley had no women executives.

 

Sexual violence and assualt

(via Status of Women in Canada)

 

According to police-reported data, women made up 90% of the victims of sexual assault in 2012.

Men are the perpetrators of 87% of cases of sexual violence against men or women, and 99% of cases of sexual violence against women.

 

Poverty

(via the National Women's Law Centre)

 

Women working full-time, year-round earn just 80 cents for every dollar made by their male counterparts.

Women make up 63% of the elderly poor.

Women are 1.38 times more likely to live in poverty than men.

 

 

And that is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm glad that your wife and daughter have had great success, but your anecdotal evidence does not contradict statistics. 

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation but I think that you are working backwards on this. The simple fact that there are more men working in certain roles than women does not automatically conclude that there is discrimination. As VHF pointed out, there are lots of jobs where women outnumber men. 

 

What I would like to hear is a first hand example from someone where their company pays men more money than women for the same job or discriminates against women in promotions or advancement. I will cease patronizing that company if true. If you want change then that is the way to do it. To date though, nobody has ever been able to give me a first hand account of anything.

 

​What I tend to hear though are examples about "other people" or "other companies" that cannot be substantiated or which are generic in details. If this is a systemic issue then lots of people should be able to step up.

 

With respect to your stats about women making up 63% of the elderly poor, women make up 66% of the elderly population which actually would mean then that they are underrepresented in that grouping! https://globalnews.c...ber-men-canada/

Edited by spanky123, 02 February 2018 - 08:13 AM.

[Cats4Hire]

I don't see much little girls pushing around strollers and carrying dolls either. My neighbour has a boy (probably 4 or 5) who plays with the stroller used for his sister sometimes though.

[RFS]

Your anecdotal observations dont change the established evidence on the subject which is that boys will naturally prefer toys that look like things and girls toys that look like people and this has even been observed with chimpanzees
https://news.nationa...mals-evolution/

[rjag]

anyway.....back to the topic....Should Ms May receive special treatment and a hall pass because she has different plumbing? Or is a bully simply a bully?