427 replies to this topic

[attica]

Roughly what part of town do you live in attica?

 

BTW, I live miles away.

 

Live and work minutes away, love the area

[Mike K.]

Minutes away can be relative. What part of town?

[attica]

Minutes away can be relative. What part of town?

 

Minutes away by foot, I can literally see the building, 

 

Though im not sure what you are trying to prove with this line of questioning...

Edited by attica, 27 January 2016 - 09:48 AM.

[Mike K.]

Anyways, the notion that this facility will be a smashing success is hard to support for the following reasons:
- Rock Bay Landing had to be located in, well, Rock Bay's industrial area for a reason
- Streetlink closed for a reason
- St. Andrew's Elementary closed for a reason
- businesses near Our Place have iron fencing for a reason
- Salavation Army is musing about a move for a reason
- the neighbourhood in which Cool-Aid wants to open this facility is being contested for a reason

You simply cannot infuse a neighbourhood with 100 hard to house individuals, across the street from an elementary school for God's sake, and expect the community to just play along. This facility needs to go where it will not be disruptive.

[Mike K.]

Minutes away by foot, I can literally see the building,

Though im not sure what you are trying to prove with this line of questioning...

Just gaining perspective.

I respect the fact that you live in the area and support the plan. You've got skin in the game, so to speak.

[VicHockeyFan]

Anyways, the notion that this facility will be a smashing success is hard to support for the following reasons:
- Rock Bay Landing had to be located in, well, Rock Bay's industrial area for a reason
- Streetlink closed for a reason
- St. Andrew's Elementary closed for a reason
- businesses near Our Place have iron fencing for a reason
- Salavation Army is musing about a move for a reason
- the neighbourhood in which Cool-Aid wants to open this facility is being contested for a reason

You simply cannot infuse a neighbourhood with 100 hard to house individuals, across the street from an elementary school for God's sake, and expect the community to just play along. This facility needs to go where it will not be disruptive.

 

Right, and as I've stated it's not just the residents, it's the dozens of people that supply the drugs, that are not allowed in that will ring the perimeter.

 

Look, this is what happens when you have property next to a homeless gathering place:

 

 

So at the very least, you'll need that around the school.  And what parent will want to bring their kid to that school?

 

And look, the guy that owns the muffler shop, or the car dealer across from Queens Manor, or the used tire shop or recycling yard near Rock Bay, he's got the advantage of having the first guy in the morning, already wearing his overalls for the day, that can pick up needles and hose off the sh%t and piss.

 

You tell me, when the defecation happens on the fields of the school, who is going to "wipe up" the urine and feces" from the sports fields?  Nobody, so you need to gate the whole thing with a 6' fence, like the one on the right above.  Nice school ya got there.  

 

[VicHockeyFan]

So after the gates go up at the school, and the enrolment begins to drop, the dealers and users will need other space.  These property owners will be next.

 

Here a few good ones, under these car parking covers, the back of the apartment next door, and across the street.

 

 

And if you do not believe me, simply go to Rock Bay and take a walk.  Better yet, talk to the business owners next door.  And remember, Rock Bay is a bit away from downtown for dealers, this is nice and close.

[Mike K.]

That's why St. Andrew's closed. Staff were regularly cleaning the grounds and disposing discarded needles. Feces, vomit, all sorts of stuff was on that school property and parents started pulling their kids out in droves. It's a crying shame that children must be used as pawns in order to secure the stability of a neighbourhood.

 

Hell, we have laws preventing access to alcohol within a specific distance to schools, meanwhile we have no problem introducing drug dealers and drug use and the societal problems that come with them 10 meters from an elementary school?

[VicHockeyFan]

Not convinced?  Well, let's take a look at the closest apartment building to Rock Bay Landing.

 

See anything familiar?  Complete gating, including across the parking entry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VicPushedOver]

What kind of a terrible PR flack wrote that?  So transparent.

 

https://coolaid.org/...court/#recovery

 

Following is a rebuttal to the information appearing on Cool Aids web site, from "Speakup.Fairfield".

 

 

This essentially takes every point from our notice and attempts to rebut it. First off, let us say again, that the information on our notice came from the 3-hour meeting, attended by approximately 200, with Cool-Aid on January 13. The facts on our notice have been confirmed to be 100% true by representatives of the parents' group who have met with Cool-Aid face to face several times.

 

Based on the information they received from Cool-Aid, the school has decided to OFFICIALLY OPPOSE this project. This decision was not taken lightly, given the school's association with the Anglican church and its dedication to charitable causes.

 

A group of parents of the school has also been formed to oppose the project.

 

We can't cover everything, but here are some of the issues we have with Cool-Aid's Questions and Answers:

STAFFING LEVELS: Cool-Aid CLEARLY stated, in private conversations and in front of an estimated 200 parents last week, that they intend to staff the location with TWO 24/7 positions. In addition, one coordinator would be there Monday-Friday during business hours, and there would be some drop-in services offered by VIHA (although they cannot say what they will be). Their website now says a MINIMUM of 2. This is new. Nevertheless, outside of business hours, there will only be two people in place. Furthermore, Cool-Aid may now claim to get more people in place, but once they are established, there will be no requirement for them to maintain minimal staffing levels.

FACILITY SIZE: Mt Edward would house 101 chronic homeless people in one single building. This is very different from the THREE buildings on Pandora. Cool-Aid admitted not knowing of any other low barrier housing facilities of this size, in a residential neighborhood, next to a school, making this effectively, an experiment.

At a meeting last night, several people in the mental health field, who have spent a lot of time working with or at the Pandora facilities, expressed their personal/professional opinions that such a proposal is of inappropriate size and in inappropriate location.

RESIDENTS OF THE FACILITY: On January 13, Ms. Stinson was repeatedly asked about the selection criteria for the residents of the facility. Parents were pleading for some restrictions on future tenants or criminal record checks. The answer was a resounding "no". The selection committee (CASH) Cool-Aid refers to is defined as follows:

"The Centralized Access to Supported Housing (CASH) program is a cross-organizational hub for collecting applications and referrals to mental health and addictions supported housing in the Greater Victoria area.

Supported housing integrates tenancy with on-site support services and is intended for people:

•             Who are managing multiple barriers including mental health and/or addiction issues;

•             Who, due to these issues, are experiencing homelessness or are at risk of homelessness;

•             Whose support needs cannot be managed with community supports.

CASH strives to streamline access to supported housing with a fair and equitable process for all people accessing supported housing in the Greater Victoria area.

CASH is unfortunately NOT a good fit for individuals whose primary needs are:

•             Affordable housing

•             Assisted Living

•             Tertiary care

•             Emergency housing

•             Abstinence based housing

•             Transitional housing for clients released from prison

•             Housing for minors or families (clients with children)

•             Seniors housing"

PRESCRIBED MEDICATION MONITORING: The fundamental principle of Low Barrier housing is that residents are NOT required to accept any services. They are NOT required to take any medication. The support staff has no mandate to ensure medication is taken. Cool-Aid's statement that the staff will provide medication monitoring may be referring to the Cool-Aid practice of monitoring mandated safe injection equipment.

SAFETY AND SECURITY: Passive security comes from active pedestrian traffic which is known to deter crime, not from people looking out their windows.

Cool-Aid claims that the facility will REDUCE loitering, littering, drug trading and discarding of drug paraphernalia in the neighborhood. VicPD confirmed that the facility would actually INCREASE loitering and drug activity in the area. The 700 block of Pandora and surroundings (Cormorant) is not what we aspire our neighborhood to become.

There has already been an increase in litter, drug paraphernalia, petty crime and nuisance disturbances since the occupation of the provincial court house lawn started. Many of these crimes have not been reported. Many in our neighborhood have experienced increased property crimes. They don't report them, because they feel that there would be nothing the police could do.

Finally, here are some interesting reads:

New SFU study contradicts popular belief that safe, affordable housing helps reduce substance abuse

http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Pete+McMartin+intractable+problem+addiction+mentally/11234846/story.html

Comparing people in low barrier housing for 2 years to people living on the streets for 2 years saw absolutely no evidence of substance abuse reduction. The researcher goes on to state that the lack of evidence finding is made worst by the fact the the study includes a selection bias whereas the most successful cases in low barrier housing are compared to the worst cases of homelessness.

 

Jan. 20 Victoria News article about gang activity mentions aggressive drug dealing around homeless shelters in Victoria:

http://www.vicnews.com/news/365927981.html?mobile=true

"This isn’t the first time police in Victoria have come across associates with the gang.Last July, an undercover sting targeting aggressive drug dealers around homeless shelters lead to the arrest of 16 people and 19 counts of trafficking. Police said most of those charged were members of the Norteños, which have been growing in Victoria."

 

Another SFU study states that aggregation of homeless population in large city cores is detrimental to their well being.

http://bmjopen.bmj.c...009043.abstract

"...Over the subsequent 10 years the percentage of the sample in the DTES increased to 52%, with commensurate reductions in the percentage outside Vancouver (21%) and among those whose status was unknown (3%). The percentage in Vancouver (outside DTES) remained stable over time (21%), indicating that migration was primarily associated with people relocating from outside the city. "

"Conclusions: Significant increases in service use over a 10-year period coincided with significant migration into an urban area where relevant services were concentrated. These results highlight opportunities for early intervention in spatially diverse neighborhoods to interrupt trajectories marked by worsening health and extremely high service involvement. Further research is urgently needed to investigate the causal relationships between physical migration, health and social welfare, and escalating use of public services. "

Cool Aid is misinterpreting this study which suggests that services must be offered in all communities of the province rather than requiring people to migrate to large city cores where services are now concentrated. This is very different from residential communities like ours that are within a few minutes' walking distance to the city core where Mt Edward residents would be expected to go and receive some of their services.

 

 Housing first doesn't work, President and CEO of the Institute for Children, Poverty and Homelessness (ICPH).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pat-lamarche/housing-first-doesnt-homelessness_b_4611639.html

"Nunez recommended a three-tiered solution. He said "of course Housing First," for families and individuals who just need housing. But there also needs to be a Housing Second option for folks who need education or other job training and placement assistance. Lastly, there needs to be a Housing Third option for individuals and families with problems that compound their job and/or housing situation. Those requiring the Housing Third model often have other complicated challenges including substance abuse, generational poverty, and mental or physical illness."

Edited by VicPushedOver, 27 January 2016 - 10:56 AM.

[VicHockeyFan]

Now, let's move on to methadone.  Many addicts need it.  So Mr. Forbes is more than happy to supply it, it's a big money-maker.

 

So of course he opened a pharmacy at Gorge and Rock Bay, and he owns the one across from Our Place, with the convenient side window pick-up window.  Come get your methadone.

 

Will he set one up near 1002 Vancouver?

 

Around here might work...

 

[VicPushedOver]

May I draw your attention to the Topaz Park protest/informal hearing?  Minds were changed.

 

Certain councillors have strong support in Fairfield/Gonzales.  There are swing votes on council, Madoff, Lucas and Coleman, and even Alto.  Add Young, who is already opposed I'm sure, and that's a 5-4 defeat. 

There are a lot of people connected to this issue who never really paid much attention to civic politics, who are now questioning the sanity of the so called "decision makers" at City Hall. Helps doesn't care, she already knows she has no chance of reelection. For the other counselors, reelection changes are on the line.

[Kapten Kapsell]

I'm a Fairfield resident but the neighbourhood is large and I'm probably a kilometre away from the site of this proposed housing.

 

I will say that the Camas Gardens supportive housing (on Humboldt Street between Quadra and Fairfield) seems to be well-run and I don't think that there are any issues with the neighbours on that block.  The building itself is handsomely-designed and appears not to attract those who prey on the homeless. It might have a different 'clientele' than what is being proposed 5 blocks north? 

[VicPushedOver]

I don't think that's the right zoning you've cited.

 

Carrying on, where do you think all the outdoor dealing and using will happen when this place shows up?  After school hours it'll happen all over the nooks and crannies the school property provides.  At the very least, the school will need to install tall perimeter fences and close off the parking lots with gates.  More likely they will have to do some of that, as well as hire an all-night security guard.

 

 

Can all you doubters please just go to Rock Bay Landing or Queens Manor one night at 10pm?  Or "cheque day" at any time, and just watch the neighbourhood.  It's a jungle.  Now multiple what you see by 1.5 or 2x, based on the size of this thing.

Actually there is one thing about the map. Since that map picture was taken Rockland Ave. between Vancouver St. that's the area between the school and the proposed site has been closed off and turned into a pedestrian/bike only zone. Making it an even better for area loitering and drug transactions.

Edited by VicPushedOver, 27 January 2016 - 11:25 AM.

[VicPushedOver]

I'm a Fairfield resident but the neighbourhood is large and I'm probably a kilometre away from the site of this proposed housing.

 

I will say that the Camas Gardens supportive housing (on Humboldt Street between Quadra and Fairfield) seems to be well-run and I don't think that there are any issues with the neighbours on that block.  The building itself is handsomely-designed and appears not to attract those who prey on the homeless. It might have a different 'clientele' than what is being proposed 5 blocks north? 

Its for supportive housing, meaning its primarily for people who are in danger of becoming homeless because they can not afford rent, there are some that have been homeless but its not designated for the Chronic Homeless,  Mt Edwards site will be. Its run by Pacifica Housing, not Cool Aid.

[Mike K.]

A worthwhile read about the Nortenos gang police attribute to drug dealing around the shelters.

[Baro]

Wrote my first NIMBY letter to council about this

Then again are legitimate concerns over a thing that has a very very good chance of totally destroying the neighbourhood really NIMBY ? 

[Alan Rycroft]

Anyways, the notion that this facility will be a smashing success is hard to support for the following reasons:
- Rock Bay Landing had to be located in, well, Rock Bay's industrial area for a reason
- Streetlink closed for a reason
- St. Andrew's Elementary closed for a reason
- businesses near Our Place have iron fencing for a reason
- Salavation Army is musing about a move for a reason
- the neighbourhood in which Cool-Aid wants to open this facility is being contested for a reason

You simply cannot infuse a neighbourhood with 100 hard to house individuals, across the street from an elementary school for God's sake, and expect the community to just play along. This facility needs to go where it will not be disruptive.

[Alan Rycroft]

 

Anyways, the notion that this facility will be a smashing success is hard to support for the following reasons:
- Rock Bay Landing had to be located in, well, Rock Bay's industrial area for a reason
- Streetlink closed for a reason
- St. Andrew's Elementary closed for a reason
- businesses near Our Place have iron fencing for a reason
- Salavation Army is musing about a move for a reason
- the neighbourhood in which Cool-Aid wants to open this facility is being contested for a reason

You simply cannot infuse a neighbourhood with 100 hard to house individuals, across the street from an elementary school for God's sake, and expect the community to just play along. This facility needs to go where it will not be disruptive.

 

None of these cited locations are long-term, supportive housing -- which provides a stable environment for both residents and tenants. They are all drop-in and emergency, shelter services which help people who are homeless -- not housed -- and therefore living much more unstable, unpredictable lives. It's like comparing apples with potatoes.

 

Here's some more from Cool Aid's FAQ on Mount Edward Court, which is available online at www.CoolAid.org/mtedward --

 

Question: It sounds dangerous to house people with mental illness and addictions right beside Cathedral School. What assurances can you give that our children will not be harmed?

 

Answer: Whenever Cool Aid proposes a new apartment building neighbours are afraid. They often think that supportive housing looks like an emergency shelter or drop-in service where there can be spillover effects onto the sidewalk. Once we open and neighbours discover that the building is well managed and the residents well supported, there are very few problems or complaints. Check out the locations of our 14 facilities on this map.

Cool Aid’s own properties on the 700-block of Pandora Avenue provide an excellent example of how supportive housing can work well with neighbours, businesses and children nearby. 112 Cool Aid residents are housed on the block (including eight residents 19 years or younger) – from the same populations that Cool Aid proposes to house at Mount Edward Court.

 

The Downtown Community Centre is located immediately below/adjacent to 85 apartments for both adults and youth under 19 years.

 

Every weekday during the school year, groups of daycare providers rent the Community Centre’s gymnasium space for their preschool children to enjoy. As you can see from this online letter from a daycare provider, this has been working well for over 20 years for both the preschoolers and Cool Aid residents who benefit from their positive energy and encourage each other to be respectful and positive. To quote the daycare provider from her letter:

 

“Never in this time [20 years] have I or my children ever felt intimidated by the residents/clients of the facilities. In fact, it is quite the opposite. The residents/clients take great delight in watching the children and sometimes interacting with them – always with care and politeness and only after we have spoken first. I encourage the children to talk to everyone and if too shy to at least smile. The older children now recognize some of the longer time residents/clients and run up to say hi or show a special treasure they have. I really think this benefits the children and the residents/clients.”

— Leagh Lawrence, Pedal Pusher Daycare

 

Additionally, for many years, the site was a host of the Out of the Rain youth shelter, for youth 19 years or younger who are homeless.

 

Cool Aid would be pleased to tour you through the 717-757 Pandora Street site, or welcome you to drop by yourselves anytime, to see how well a staffed supportive housing building fits into a neighbourhood even with child and youth services on site.

 

For tour bookings or information, please call Alan Rycroft at 250-414-4781 or email arycroft@CoolAid.org.

[Alan Rycroft]

If you look on it on Bing maps, it does have a wooded internal courtyard but it appears to be accessible only from within the building. There is no outdoor gathering area like at Our Place.

http://binged.it/1nMZmpO

And that is a fabulous benefit for both the residents and the neighbours!