3848 replies to this topic

[lanforod]

A similar model to what Portugal did would work well, I think, with some tweaks. A policy I'd be okay with here, actually. Treat it like cigarettes. Regulated source, go after black market sources. Stigmatize the heck out of it, limit where it can be used, push addictions treatment etc etc.

[Nparker]

...Treat it like cigarettes. Regulated source, go after black market sources. Stigmatize the heck out of it, limit where it can be used, push addictions treatment etc etc.

You mean the exact opposite to what is being done now.

[Victoria Watcher]

A similar model to what Portugal did would work well, I think, with some tweaks. A policy I'd be okay with here, actually. Treat it like cigarettes. Regulated source, go after black market sources. Stigmatize the heck out of it, limit where it can be used, push addictions treatment etc etc.

Portugal you are given a simple choice treatment or jail. both get you off the street. we have no intention of such a system.

[pennymurphy2000]

https://vancouversun...ugals-drug-czar

 

This article explains quite well how the Portuguese system works. 

 

.....The only thing that most outsiders know about Portugal’s laws is that all drugs for personal use are decriminalized. But what most fail to understand is that all drugs, other than alcohol and tobacco, remain illegal.

If police find you with illicit drugs, you’ll be arrested and taken to a police station where the drugs will be weighed. If the amount is above the strictly enforced threshold limits — designed to be a 10-day supply for personal use, or 25 grams of cannabis, five grams of cannabis resin, two grams of cocaine, or one gram each of ecstasy or heroin — you can be charged as a trafficker. If convicted, jail terms range from one year to 14 years.

If the amount is below the limit, you’ll be sent the following day to the Commission for the Dissuasion of Drug Addiction — even if you’re a tourist. There, you will be interviewed by a psychologist or social worker before appearing before a three-person panel that will offer suggestions aimed at stopping your drug use.

 

From there, you’re fast-tracked to whatever services you’re willing to accept. If you refuse help, you can be asked to do community service or even, eventually, facing a fine, perhaps even having possessions confiscated and sold to pay the fine.

Goulão still can’t get over what he saw when he visited Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside last fall.

“I was shocked. What I saw took me back to the end of the 1980s and 1990s in Lisbon with the public visibility of drug use and nuisance,” he said.

He was asked about what would happen in Lisbon if an opioid user had to be revived with naloxone multiple times in a week.

 

“It wouldn’t happen,” Goulão said. “If it did, he’d probably be in a hospital under intensive psychiatric treatment. Four times in a week is not an accident. It has to be intentional. So he would need intensive therapy. … But I don’t know of somebody who would have overdosed so many times.”

[Victoria Watcher]

ya it's a huge difference between that and how we do it or would do it.

[Mike K.]

How many hard drug addicts are able to kick their addiction?

An incredibly low few.

Most will eventually die of an overdose, or from disease related to the lifestyle brought upon by the drugs. Even wealthy, healthy and in reach of world class care die (Prince, Bowie, Petty, Seymour-Hoffman, etc.).

Even among them relapse so likely that no matter how much we bang the decriminalization drum the chance of life-long sobriety is very small. We already treat is as decriminalized in our own community and people are still dying in record numbers.

[Victoria Watcher]

He was asked about what would happen in Lisbon if an opioid user had to be revived with naloxone multiple times in a week.

 

“It wouldn’t happen,” Goulão said. “If it did, he’d probably be in a hospital under intensive psychiatric treatment. Four times in a week is not an accident. It has to be intentional. So he would need intensive therapy. … But I don’t know of somebody who would have overdosed so many times.”

 

several times in a week that's nothing. how about 153 in 12 months?

 

I've been through 153 overdoses in 12 months

 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/n...sites-1.5270983

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 22 September 2019 - 07:42 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

Even among them relapse so likely that no matter how much we bang the decriminalization drum the chance of life-long sobriety is very small. We already treat is as decriminalized in our own community and people are still dying in record numbers.

 

and the record numbers are also in the places with safe injection sites.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 22 September 2019 - 07:44 AM.

[A Girl is No one]

And yet none of the ever expanding crew of professional empathy providers has taken in any of the comments from the Portugal guy. They also chose to ignore the advice of the Medicine Hat guy who said that the first thing he did was to streamline support services, ie instead of having 10 food donation agencies, only have one etc.
I think a big part of our problem is that we have a powerful and deeply entrenched poverty industry with very little real empathy for people suffering from mental illness and drug addiction.

Edited by A Girl is No one, 22 September 2019 - 07:46 AM.

[Nparker]

...I think a big part of our problem is that we have a powerful and deeply entrenched poverty industry with very little real empathy for people suffering from mental illness and drug addiction.

While they may have empathy, as you say it's an industry and so those who work for it have little incentive to see things get better. Their very livelihoods depend on the status quo, or something similar to it.

[lanforod]

several times in a week that's nothing. how about 153 in 12 months?

 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/n...sites-1.5270983

 

4/week is more than 153/year when extrapolated...

[spanky123]

and the record numbers are also in the places with safe injection sites.

 

The vast majority of drug users in town don't want to stop using drugs. I know because I have ask them as part of local surveys and reports. What they want is for their lifestyle to be supported and we do that in spades. Without any requirement for treatment or addiction services then we will continue to see more and more people needing services in our downtown core. Few are ever going to get better on their own and decriminalizing all drugs as the Greens now suggest will just legitimize the activity so even more people will participate.

 

We have hundreds, if not thousands, of unfilled jobs in Victoria, record low employment participation rates and hundred, if not thousands of people sitting on their butts living off of Government handouts. If I were a student out protesting it would be about whether I am going to have a financial future with more and more people taking and fewer and fewer contributing. 

Edited by spanky123, 22 September 2019 - 09:34 AM.

[Nparker]

The vast majority of drug users in town don't want to stop using drugs. I know because I have asked them as part of local surveys and reports. What they want is for their lifestyle to be supported...

Something you will never hear the industry folks admit to publicly.

[Victoria Watcher]

We have hundreds, if not thousands, of unfilled jobs in Victoria, record low employment participation rates and hundred, if not thousands of people sitting on their butts living off of Government handouts. 

 

and we have that at the high point of our economy.  if our economy sours by 10% how many more do we see on the boulevard on 900 pandora?

[Sparky]

A number of societies frown on the drug culture, especially where use has been going on for a long time.

 

"United States drug laws are often considered harsh, but the penalties for carrying or trafficking drugs in other countries, particularly those in Central America, South America, and Southeast Asia, can be much more severe. Here are twenty countries in which you do not want to be caught carrying or selling drugs."

 

https://drugabuse.co...s-in-the-world/

[Victoria Watcher]

4/week is more than 153/year when extrapolated...

 

yes but i think the person was amazed that a person could overdose 4 times in any span.  153 would knock them over.

[Victoria Watcher]

A number of societies frown on the drug culture, especially where use has been going on for a long time.

 

"United States drug laws are often considered harsh, but the penalties for carrying or trafficking drugs in other countries, particularly those in Central America, South America, and Southeast Asia, can be much more severe. Here are twenty countries in which you do not want to be caught carrying or selling drugs."

 

https://drugabuse.co...s-in-the-world/

 

here is a list of the homeless populations of many countries.

 

https://en.wikipedia...less_population

 

nothing in the first world is over 1% and most countries like us are under 0.2%

 

there is a fix for this problem.  it's not the path we are currently on.

[rmpeers]

But pretty much all our local goverbment leaders will just parrot the untruths of the various "activists" and "academics" who consistently are allowed to dominate the conversation in this city. And those kooks have no solutions.

God help us when Mayor Isitt assumes power and relocates City Hall into the Student Union Building. That's when we'll look back on this as the good old days...

[Victoria Watcher]

A similar model to what Portugal did would work well, I think, with some tweaks. 

 

OK explain that system and what tweaks we need.

[Victoria Watcher]

The forum heard that since a province-wide emergency was declared in April 2016, more than 4,000 people have died from overdoses in B.C. Last year, just over 1,500 people died.
Provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry said if there is any good news, it’s that the number of deaths this year to date (538) is about 30 per cent lower than in 2018. She said that number is still too high, with about three people dying every day.
“The thing that concerns me even more is we’re still seeing increasing numbers of people overdosing every day,” Henry said, calling it a sign that programs are working, but there are still people who are unable to stop using drugs.




no. that’s a sure sign that the programs are not working. we are sending the message that it’s ok to overuse because many are now armed to revive you.


https://www.timescol...isis-1.23955469