639 replies to this topic

[Bingo]

Is there something you're trying to say, Bingo? Is the Amazon topic a little off to you... 

 

Take a look at the name of this thread and see if this ongoing debate about Amazon belongs here.

Just trying to bring it back on topic, but you already figured that out. 

[sdwright.vic]

I have no desire to go to the Amazon as It is unlikely it will EVER have Piranha Proportional Representation.

Okay... so once again... instead of this continued rudeness to each other (especially as a mod)... how do we fix this? Lets talk about that? How do we come to a position that we all feel heard, instead of bullied (getting way tired of that).

Do most votes win instead of first past?

[N E Body]

I would like somebody to rename this Forum... I think "Canada Post Strike" will suffice.

[vortoozo]

The issues aren’t that bad. We’ve been relatively inscathed as far as the strike is concerned, but parcels obviously notwithstanding in some parts of the country.

I’m still getting all of my mail on time, people are receiving mine, parcels are getting delivered on time, etc.

 

You've been quite lucky, then.

https://www.canadapo...314358721962862

https://www.canadapo...009764007601053

 

Regardless, CP was on strike in Victoria last Thursday & Friday

That would directly impact the referendum results since they're being mailed to an address in Victoria.

[Mike K.]

Pro-PR Sweden is facing a snap election following the results of its summer election that saw fringe parties elevated to power.

 

The established parties refuse to form a coalition with the fringe parties and a government has not been formed since the election. The prospect of another election, however, could actually work in the favour of the fringe parties by focusing even more support towards their platforms.

 

As some of you might recall, the far right-wing Sweden Democrats won so many seats in the last election that they didn't have enough members to fill them (about 20 in excess of their membership). The result of the election was a total shock but under PR the Sweden Democrats suddenly became a major political force despite having only been a fringe party in prior elections.

[G-Man]

That has little to do with PR if they are getting a large proportion of the seats that speaks to those who voted.

[rjag]

That has little to do with PR if they are getting a large proportion of the seats that speaks to those who voted.

Sure it does if that’s the system that was used

[Mike K.]

That's the whole point, that PR entitles them to a far greater number of seats than they were prepared to fill with contenders in specific ridings.

 

I.e., for the sake of argument they ran in 30 ridings hoping to score 50 seats, but under PR the number of votes they received entitles them to 50 seats.

[LeoVictoria]

So Sweden has a far right problem, not a PR problem.   

 

Or are you now arguing that the political process should be designed to suppress certain parties?   And who decides which parties are suppressed?   

[Mike K.]

No, not at all.

The people have voted and the system that their country uses to reflect their votes has not only elevated an extremist party to the position of kingmaker, it has resulted in a political stalemate as the moderates are unwilling to work with the extremists. Had the country relied on FPTP there would be three or four parties, not 12, and one of those three are quite likely to have garnered enough power to form a majority.

[N E Body]

No, not at all.

The people have voted and the system that their country uses to reflect their votes has not only elevated an extremist party to the position of kingmaker, it has resulted in a political stalemate as the moderates are unwilling to work with the extremists. Had the country relied on FPTP there would be three or four parties, not 12, and one of those three are quite likely to have garnered enough power to form a majority.

 

... and eventually the extremist party might have formed majority. That possibility is there... with FPTP.

[rjag]

So Sweden has a far right problem, not a PR problem.   
 
Or are you now arguing that the political process should be designed to suppress certain parties?   And who decides which parties are suppressed?

The system creates a perpetual state of flux, most of the time it can be managed but some of the time it creates gridlock. We are seeing quite a few examples of flux this last year in Germany, Norway, Sweden etc

What do you think of the latest move in NZ where list MPs have less rights than direct elected MPs? List MPs cannot cross the floor to be independent or join another party. The seat is owned by the party and if they resign, die or apply their principals in protest they lose the seat and the party simply appoints another list member

Who has the power?

[spanky123]

... and eventually the extremist party might have formed majority. That possibility is there... with FPTP.

 

I think that is unlikely, but Sweden brings to light the heart of the PR debate. You want more stability or you want broader representation. The two are mutually exclusive.

 

In Sweden the Neo-Nazi's would have received a couple of seats under FPTP as 18% of the vote would not have been enough to carry many contests. Under PR they get 18% of the seats. The belief that parties at the opposite end of the spectrum will naturally want to work with each other and share power is a fantasy.

[Mike K.]

... and eventually the extremist party might have formed majority. That possibility is there... with FPTP.

 

Wouldn't a majority be a majority regardless of which system is being used?

[Cats4Hire]

Wouldn't a majority be a majority regardless of which system is being used?

Nope. Trudeau got 39.9% of the votes and has a safe majority (I think 63% of seats?).

Edited by Cats4Hire, 20 November 2018 - 08:51 AM.

[shoeflack]

Pro-PR Sweden is facing a snap election following the results of its summer election that saw fringe parties elevated to power.

 

The established parties refuse to form a coalition with the fringe parties and a government has not been formed since the election. The prospect of another election, however, could actually work in the favour of the fringe parties by focusing even more support towards their platforms.

 

As some of you might recall, the far right-wing Sweden Democrats won so many seats in the last election that they didn't have enough members to fill them (about 20 in excess of their membership). The result of the election was a total shock but under PR the Sweden Democrats suddenly became a major political force despite having only been a fringe party in prior elections.

 

Sorry Mike, do you have a source for this statement. Because every source that I see puts this as no shock at all. In fact, most folks were reporting that Sweden Democrats didn't fare as well as they were expected. They were polling around 24% and only took 17.5%. I have also seen zero sources behind your claim that they did so well that they didn't have enough member to fill their seats...do you have a source for that statement? There was no doubt a significant rise from the right, but I'm not sure you have all the facts straight here.

 

Analysis: Brussels dodges populist bullet as Sweden Democrats fall short

The anti-immigrant Sweden Democrats fail to achieve an electoral breakthrough

[jonny]

Nope. Trudeau got 39.9% of the votes and has a safe majority (I think 63% of seats?).

 

The difference being that with three major parties (all of whom ran on - let's be honest here - platforms that were not all that different in 2015) most people (55%+, last I read) approve of the job the PM is doing either wholly or at least in part.

 

With 12 parties, the average voter wouldn't even be able to name each party and their leader, never mind understand the main points of their platform.

[spanky123]

Sorry Mike, do you have a source for this statement. Because every source that I see puts this as no shock at all. In fact, most folks were reporting that Sweden Democrats didn't fare as well as they were expected. They were polling around 24% and only took 17.5%. I have also seen zero sources behind your claim that they did so well that they didn't have enough member to fill their seats...do you have a source for that statement? There was no doubt a significant rise from the right, but I'm not sure you have all the facts straight here.

 

Analysis: Brussels dodges populist bullet as Sweden Democrats fall short

The anti-immigrant Sweden Democrats fail to achieve an electoral breakthrough

 

Nothing to 18% is a breakthrough in my opinion. It was short of the 24% that some predicted though. Seems like polls in Sweden are no better then they are here. Must be the same private equity groups with vested interest that own those polling firms as well!

Edited by spanky123, 20 November 2018 - 09:10 AM.

[N E Body]

Wouldn't a majority be a majority regardless of which system is being used?

 

Exactly my point.

Edited by N E Body, 20 November 2018 - 09:21 AM.

[shoeflack]

Nothing to 18% is a breakthrough in my opinion. It was short of the 24% that some predicted though. Seems like polls in Sweden are no better then they are here. Must be the same private equity groups with vested interest that own those polling firms as well!

 

They were at 12.9% in the 2014 election and 5.7% in 2010...sort of a rise similar to the BC Green Party.

 

Hardly nothing to 18%.