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BC Minimum Wage Increase Offcially Announced This Morning


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#81 Star Dust

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:04 PM

LOL....OK then...

 

Clearly you are out to lunch and not in tune with reality at all. The output of surgeons and mechanics is obviously of differing economic value in every conceivable way. 

 

I disagree. And that's where it will just have to stay LOL.  

 

Remember jonny....it's OK if people don't think the same way as you. I know that can be a hard pill to swallow, but you're just gonna have to do it one of these days.

 

 

 

Your response should have looked more like this:  "Clearly you and me don't see this issue the same way as I do, and we don't agree that surgeons and mechanics share the same economic value"


Edited by Star Dust, 09 February 2018 - 12:19 PM.


#82 Star Dust

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:37 PM

The next time you need surgery, we can provide you a mechanic to do it.

 

The Value of the services and skills they provide is the same.

 

What they do for a profession is different.

 

They should be paid the exact same wage.


Edited by Star Dust, 09 February 2018 - 12:39 PM.


#83 Mike K.

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:50 PM

The Value of the services and skills they provide is the same.

 

What they do for a profession is different.

 

They should be paid the exact same wage.

 

That's a pretty wonky way of thinking, Star Dust.


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#84 Star Dust

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:52 PM

That's a pretty wonky way of thinking, Star Dust.

 

Then so be it.



#85 FirstTimeHomeCrier

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:02 PM

Things do get murky when you compare jobs, particularly if one of those jobs is something like surgeon. As we move toward equalizing pay, we also need to carefully consider how to equalize other aspects of the work environment.

 

Let's look at some of the arguments for increasing pay to surgeons and see if there are other ways to approach the issue. For one thing, surgeons require many years of medical school which can lead to massive student debt and lots of stress. What if we made medical school less expensive (even free) and put better structures in place to support the mental wellness of medical students?

 

You can also argue that surgeons or other doctors may work longer hours than mechanics. What that says to me is that we need to come up with solutions to balance the workload of individual surgeons, whether that's by recruiting more doctors, designing technical improvements to operating rooms, or creating more support positions to help with certain surgical tasks.

 

Surgeons also face high levels of stress because the work they do is so often life-or-death. A mistake could be fatal. We need to address ways to minimize this stress by listening to individual doctors and ensuring they have the supports they need (anything from extra safety measures in the operating room to counselling and special leave after a patient dies on the table).

 

I don't think it's effective to try and assign people an economic value and rank them. It's much better to consider how a person's skills and training can best benefit our society, and what supports that person needs to leverage those skills and training.


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#86 dasmo

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:05 PM

Problem with that is no one will want to be the surgeon.... Why on earth would I want to spend 100’s of 1000’s of dollars and decades getting to the point where I am actually making money and take on huge pressures, long work hours and stressful responsibilities when I could just finish high school and take some training and then read a computer readout and swap modules for a living?
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#87 dasmo

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:09 PM

I’m for minimum wage increases but this communist talk is scary. I like living in a land of opportunities. Otherwise anyone with ambition and drive has to turn to crime....
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#88 Mattjvd

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:10 PM

The Value of the services and skills they provide is the same.

What they do for a profession is different.

They should be paid the exact same wage.

I can't agree that the value of the service they provide is equal.

When a mechanic makes a mistake, the vehicle doesn't run. It's inconvient for the vehicle owner, bit the mechanic can try again to get it fixed.

When a surgeon makes a mistake, someone's life could be seriously altered, or ended. They can be sued for malpractice, and have to live with that pressure.

A surgeon needs a 4 year bachelors degree, a 4 year medical degree, and a few more years of residency/specialization. It's incredible difficult (and expensive) to get through all of that, so their wages are higher to compensate for the forgone wages while they are learning.

Mechanics usually have a 2 year technical college deploma. So they are spending, at most, 1/4 the time forgoing wages to learn.

Look, I'm not trying to disrespect mechanics, they are (largely) skilled people who provide an important service. But, it's not the same as a surgeon. Do you value a vehicle's life equally to a human's life?

Edit: After posting this I see FTHC made similar points in a much more eloquent manner, +1.

Edited by Mattjvd, 09 February 2018 - 01:14 PM.

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#89 jonny

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:23 PM

Your response should have looked more like this:  "Clearly you and me don't see this issue the same way as I do, and we don't agree that surgeons and mechanics share the same economic value"

 

It's not that we don't agree that surgeons and mechanics share the same economic value, it's that you are wrong. I would be of no help to you at all if I didn't call out your delusion. 


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#90 tjv

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:32 PM

You have got to be kidding..........I worked harder then any boss I ever had for years making minimum wage. Minimum wage workers are often the hardest working people in all of society.

 

Trust me when I was making minimum wage, and my boss was sitting up in his office making 10 times my annual income to sit behind a desk and do nothing all day long......I would say that he was not "Working Hard" for his income. He was simply "Entitled To It" right?  He had his pretty clothes and his fancy cars, and laughed all the way to the bank, while I was living in a room with a hot plate, eating hot dogs, and having to share a bathroom with everyone else that lived in the building.

You really think bosses just sit around all day, sign some cheques, and do nothing?????  you obviously have never been a boss.  I put everything on the line every day, some days I make great money, other days not at all.  Its a risk and I expect to be compensated as an employer

 

The largest employer of low-wage employees in North America is also the one that has the largest market share of customers.  Walmart.

 

No flaw in their business model.  They strive to give you the lowest price possible.  North Americans overwhelmingly reward them with their business.

 

For every dollar you save by shopping at Walmart, you add them together and suddenly you have enough for a trip to Mexico.  Where your servants will be paid much, much less.  And consumers are just fine with this, by and large.

What is so funny about Wal Mart is some of the heavy unionized workers that shop there.  If you believe in a living wage you would boycott these places and also look at where every product you purchase is made.

 

Again.........I don't believe a persons education (Regardless of how long it took them to get it or how much they spent to get it) Makes them any "Better" or any more 'Valuable" then the person who didn't.

Really?  Its basic economics.  That sandwich maker at Subway works hard, not saying he doesn't, but lets say he made the boss $100 working for the day

 

Take my position, in the last year I worked for someone else I made my former employer well over $1 million.

 

We both work hard, but in economic terms my position produces more money so I get paid more.

 

The Value of the services and skills they provide is the same.

 

What they do for a profession is different.

 

They should be paid the exact same wage.

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Then lead by example, open your own business and make say $150k/yr and then pay all your employees the same wage as you from the janitor up and lets see how long you stay in business

 

Its a free country, let me know how you make out.  You can keep the forum up to date practicing your beliefs in the real world.  Quit today and you can get started right now!


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#91 FirstTimeHomeCrier

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:57 PM

Problem with that is no one will want to be the surgeon.... Why on earth would I want to spend 100’s of 1000’s of dollars and decades getting to the point where I am actually making money and take on huge pressures, long work hours and stressful responsibilities when I could just finish high school and take some training and then read a computer readout and swap modules for a living?

 

As I mentioned before, if we equalize other job factors, becoming a surgeon won't cost thousands of dollars and lead to long work hours. I know a number of folks in medical school and none of them are in it for the money.



#92 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 02:22 PM

As I mentioned before, if we equalize other job factors, becoming a surgeon won't cost thousands of dollars and lead to long work hours. I know a number of folks in medical school and none of them are in it for the money.

 

I'm not interested in my tax dollars paying for a "free" education only to have the person drop out.  When you spend your own money on things, there is an automatic motivator.


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<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#93 Star Dust

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 02:39 PM

I support FREE Education from K-University.

 

Or should I say  the education that is paid for VIA the tax system.

 

Everyone should get to go to University FREE of tuition and cost of books.

 

They have been doing it many parts of Europe for ages, and a few countries over their still do it.

 

I'll take a 5 dollar cup a coffee if that means my University education is covered.



#94 FirstTimeHomeCrier

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 02:52 PM

I'm not interested in my tax dollars paying for a "free" education only to have the person drop out.  When you spend your own money on things, there is an automatic motivator.

 

I personally don't mind paying "my" tax dollars to see improved health care at a lower eventual cost. As far as drop outs go, it's not as though everything a person learned before they dropped out just falls out of their head. People will learn skills and information that can benefit them in other career paths even if they realize medicine is not for them.

 

I think there are much better motivators than the completely fictional thing humans invented called "money."



#95 amor de cosmos

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 02:55 PM

since inflation has been brought up, this isn't specifically about the minimum wage but that recent surprisingly-good jobs report that sent the cowboys on wall street into a panic:
 

The Fed hasn’t been able to reliably meet its 2 percent inflation target since it was set in 2012, undershooting it for 66 out of 72 months. Any worry about inflation on the horizon is mostly speculative. Central bankers may say and even believe the opposite, but if they move to raise interest rates in the next several weeks and months — as is widely expected — doing so will mainly serve to ensure that workers don’t claim too much bargaining power.

“The link has broken between wages and inflation. It’s dishonest at this point for the Fed to be talking about higher wages as a cause of inflation,” said J.W. Mason, an economist at John Jay College of Criminal Justice and a fellow at the Roosevelt Institute. “But it fixes a lot of problems for them if they can make themselves think the inflation story is true.”

*snip*

STILL, THERE ARE plenty of reasons for markets to balk at high wages. In a tight labor market in which demand is high, employers have to make a better sell to workers to either stay on the job or take one in the first place, since it’s easier to find something that either pays better or is offering better working conditions. It’s also harder for companies to find people to work for them, as there are fewer people looking for jobs. In that context, bosses sweeten the deal, promising perks like higher pay, bonuses, and vacation pay — in all, shelling out more money to entice and keep the workers they need. “As all employers are doing this,” Mason said, “they’re competing with each other and bidding up the price of labor. Competition leads capitalists to act in a way that contradicts their collective interest.”

That’s where the Fed comes in, he added, to “protect businesses from their own worst impulses of giving workers higher wages.”

https://theintercept...s-report-wages/

also, that $trillion+ worth of quantitative easing didn't seem to cause any inflation, I wonder why anyone would think that raising the minimum wage would be  :confused: if something increases labour's bargaining power, it's inflationary, but if it doesn't, it's not? is that how it's defined now?

#96 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 03:01 PM

I personally don't mind paying "my" tax dollars to see improved health care at a lower eventual cost. As far as drop outs go, it's not as though everything a person learned before they dropped out just falls out of their head. People will learn skills and information that can benefit them in other career paths even if they realize medicine is not for them.

I think there are much better motivators than the completely fictional thing humans invented called "money."


You are right, we’d be better off with some other type of currency a different species created. Sigh.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#97 FirstTimeHomeCrier

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 03:12 PM

You are right, we’d be better off with some other type of currency a different species created. Sigh.

 

No, we're better off without currency.

 

Here are some great studies that show money is a limited motivator when it comes to worker productivity:

 

The relationship between pay and job satisfaction: A meta-analysis of the literature

Majority of American Workers Not Engaged in Their Jobs ("There are no significant differences in employee engagement by income level.")

A meta-analytic review of experiments examing the effects of extrinsic rewards on instrinsic motivation

Pervasive negative effects of rewards on intrinsic motivation: The myth continues ("Negative effects are found on high-interest tasks when the rewards are tangible, expected (offered beforehand), and loosely tied to level of performance")

High income improves evaluation of life but not emotional well-being ("Emotional well-being also rises with log income, but there is no further progress beyond an annual income of ∼$75,000."

 

 



#98 dasmo

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 03:15 PM

also, that $trillion+ worth of quantitative easing didn't seem to cause any inflation, I wonder why anyone would think that raising the minimum wage would be  :confused: if something increases labour's bargaining power, it's inflationary, but if it doesn't, it's not? is that how it's defined now?

It only doubled house prices and equities.... 



#99 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 03:17 PM

Majority of American Workers Not Engaged in Their Jobs ("T

 

 

For them, the absolutely soul motivator is money.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#100 FirstTimeHomeCrier

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 03:26 PM

For them, the absolutely soul motivator is money.

 

No, the sole motivator is surviving in a money-based society. They work because they need a place to live and food to eat. The cost of motivating them with these factors is that they are less efficient and the work they produce is lower quality. How does that help anyone?



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