11779 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

^that is fundamentally wrong. City Hall oversees the management of a city. Politicians approve budgets and decide on land use. Where problems arise is when politicians take it upon themselves to put interests of one group before the other.

In fact, a city does not even need residents within its borders, but it does need enterprise if it hopes to be an economic success (tiny enclaves notwithstanding which draw on services provided by other municipalities).

And furthermore, who do you think is more invested in Victoria? The UVic student from Saskatoon who will be here for four years in a rental apartment they may or may not keep as a permanent home over that four years, or the business owner from Langford who just invested $100k into a downtown business and signed a ten year lease?

[Nparker]

...The mayor and council represent their residents...

In the case of the CoV, that's highly debatable.

...The mayor and council represent their residents, not their businesses...

I'd like to know why a mayor and council shouldn't be supporting the businesses that pay taxes into local coffers.

[marks_28]

Right, but politicians are voted in by their constituents, based on their platform compared to other candidates, and then give direction to city staff. So the citizens are voting for whom they think would run the city (via city staff) that best suits their interests.

 

And sure, you could argue in that case that some might view the restaurateur has a greater vested interest. All I'm saying is opening this door could create a precedent where business interests start to outweigh the interests of a city's residents. And I don't think that is particularly a good thing. 

[marks_28]

In the case of the CoV, that's highly debatable.

I'd like to know why a mayor and council shouldn't be supporting the businesses that pay taxes into local coffers.

 

Well, more people voted for the current mayor and council than any other candidate, so not sure what to say there...

 

And this one is more debatable. But I would say that they are paying taxes for the opportunity to operate a business within the city, and to help cover the costs they incur upon the city. They aren't paying taxes to be able to vote in elections.

[Nparker]

...They aren't paying taxes to be able to vote in elections.

Because currently that is not allowed. 

[Mike K.]

Right, but politicians are voted in by their constituents, based on their platform compared to other candidates, and then give direction to city staff. So the citizens are voting for whom they think would run the city (via city staff) that best suits their interests.

And sure, you could argue in that case that some might view the restaurateur has a greater vested interest. All I'm saying is opening this door could create a precedent where business interests start to outweigh the interests of a city's residents. And I don't think that is particularly a good thing.

That’s also not quite true. The City already allows landowners/property owners who do not reside in the City-proper to vote for them, provided they have the property in their own name and are not already voting as a resident.

But to your point, municipal politicians are voted in mostly by constituents because mostly constituents can vote for them. Business owners currently don’t have the ability to cast a vote.

I also don’t see the business vote as overwhelming the resident vote. How many businesses operate out of Victoria? And how many eligible voters are there?

[Nparker]

...more people voted for the current mayor...

More people also chose to cast their vote for candidates other than Lisa Helps. She did NOT get 50% of the vote.

[Mike K.]

And this one is more debatable. But I would say that they are paying taxes for the opportunity to operate a business within the city, and to help cover the costs they incur upon the city. They aren't paying taxes to be able to vote in elections.

So a resident who just moved here from Nova Scotia, and is renting an apartment in Vic West, who might move to Saanich in six months because his buddy’s roommate there is planning to buy a house in Langford, has more political clout in the City of Victoria than a business owner who lives in Esquimalt next to Councillor Dubow or Loveday and has operated a business downtown for seven years?

[marks_28]

Lol you can cherrypick examples all day where sure, it might make sense in that instance. I just think it is a dangerous road to go down. Ten years from now, what is there to stop someone from opening a large number of shell corps incorporated within a city just so they can exert more influence on an election? Does 745986521 BC Ltd. get a vote too? And 965874569 BC Ltd.? 

 

Are there any municipalities in Canada that allow this? 

[Jackerbie]

I also don’t see the business vote as overwhelming the resident vote. How many businesses operate out of Victoria? And how many eligible voters are there?

66,243 registered voters in the last election, 9,085 business licenses issued in 2019

[Jackerbie]

Lol you can cherrypick examples all day where sure, it might make sense in that instance. I just think it is a dangerous road to go down. Ten years from now, what is there to stop someone from opening a large number of shell corps incorporated within a city just so they can exert more influence on an election? Does 745986521 BC Ltd. get a vote too? And 965874569 BC Ltd.?

Are there any municipalities in Canada that allow this?

This was allowed in BC until as recently as 1993, apparently! https://www2.gov.bc....ssion_paper.pdf

[Mike K.]

Indeed, it was. It was the NDP who ended it.

[Nparker]

Indeed, it was. It was the NDP who ended it.

Surprise, surprise.

[Mike K.]

66,243 registered voters in the last election, 9,085 business licenses issued in 2019

Thank you. And many of those operated by international chains that wouldn’t get a vote, or multiple licenses attributed to one person who would only get one vote, and others still that live in the CoV and already have a vote.

[Ismo07]

So a resident who just moved here from Nova Scotia, and is renting an apartment in Vic West, who might move to Saanich in six months because his buddy’s roommate there is planning to buy a house in Langford, has more political clout in the City of Victoria than a business owner who lives in Esquimalt next to Councillor Dubow or Loveday and has operated a business downtown for seven years?

 

Mike the business owner has way more clout than a single vote.. Believe that...  That business owner has more clout than I do, much more voice than I do.   Can't even measure it.  that business owner will get 50 times more voice than I would.

[Mike K.]

Mayor Helps told businesses facing crime to hire security.

And it’s not clout when Dodd’s Furniture has to turn to the media to have their concerns resonate.

[rjag]

Mike the business owner has way more clout than a single vote.. Believe that... That business owner has more clout than I do, much more voice than I do. Can't even measure it. that business owner will get 50 times more voice than I would.

I owned a mid sized business for 25 years and had zero influence with councils. I was on the Board of the Chamber and had zero influence with councils. What exactly do you think these businesses had to influence councils?

[On the Level]

^

the cuff report

 

https://www.georgecuff.com/

 

did the last review in Victoria and has done many others - i know a fella who saw him do one back east 

 

Interesting.  We need another one as we seem to be operating in an opposite direction of what was found in the report.  So in 2009 the CoV was called out for not engaging the public and not living up to IAP2 principles...

 

 

In 2009, City Council identified engaging with residents as one of its top priorities, following the endorsement of George Cuff’s Governance Review and the adoption of the International Association for Public Participation (IAP2) principles for engagement.

 

https://www.victoria...c_Engagment.pdf  (I've taken a copy in case it goes "missing" from the website)

 

 

 

IAP2 has developed the "IAP2 Core Values for Public Participation" for use in the development and implementation of public participation processes. These core values were developed over a two year period with broad international input to identify those aspects of public participation which cross national, cultural, and religious boundaries. The purpose of these core values is to help make better decisions which reflect the interests and concerns of potentially affected people and entities.

 

Core Values for the Practice of Public Participation

 

1. Public participation is based on the belief that those who are affected by a decision have a right to be involved in the decision-making process.
2. Public participation includes the promise that the public's contribution will influence the decision.
3. Public participation promotes sustainable decisions by recognizing and communicating the needs and interests of all participants, including decision makers.

4. Public participation seeks out and facilitates the involvement of those potentially affected by or interested in a decision.

5. Public participation seeks input from participants in designing how they participate.

6. Public participation provides participants with the information they need to participate in a meaningful way.

7. Public participation communicates to participants how their input affected the decision.

 

​

Seems that Helps and crew are taking Victoria in an opposite direction.

 

Cuff completed a report for Nanaimo in 2019 where we can see some parallels with Victoria.....

 

 

“The turnover, in my view, was absolutely significant and it was highly unusual based on the work that I’ve done in other places…” he said. “When you have 107 people turn over in the last five years that is remarkable in itself and it should be of considerable concern to council and to the citizens.”

 

So Victoria has 828 staff so if there really was a 22% turnover in 1 year, that would be 165 staff.  

 

https://www.nanaimob...aimo-city-hall/

[VIResident]

Perhaps a hyper-local news outlet such as this one they have in Nanaimo would better inform.

https://nanaimobeaco...szUHZ27NA0IYXEw

[On the Level]

Perhaps a hyper-local news outlet such as this one they have in Nanaimo would better inform.

https://nanaimobeaco...szUHZ27NA0IYXEw