11779 replies to this topic

[Victoria Watcher]

Recall legislation would be dangerous, in that it would become a de facto second chance at an election among those who lost, and continuously used as leverage by those opposed to a councillor or councillors.

 

it really depends were you set the bar.

[A Girl is No one]

At council on Monday, there was a brief and telling exchange between Stephen Andrew and Ben Isitt, separated by a few comments from others. The exchange was about how the City of Victoria does, or doesn't, consult the community before finalizing the budget.

It becomes clear during the meeting that anyone, from anywhere in BC, can load our portal (it sure ain't a survey, lol) with comments that become the feedback for our annual budget. It may be the case that literally anyone from Moscow, Thailand and Tasmania could influence our local budget.

Andrew: "So the "survey" isn't .... scientific... its it."

Staff: "Not really a survey."

Isitt: "We like it this way."

Think about this... The City spends how much money after their "process"(?) selling us the idea they consulted. They print budget celebration documents, they quote the results of their "get-the-answers-we're-looking-for" mechanism to justify their decisions, this bullshit ends up in the media with stolen credibility.

I want to know why and I'm determined to get an answer.

It's a really weak leader that seeks the answers they are looking for. That can't be it, can it? Are we that far gone, that immature?

Why would anyone engage, read, care, be involved, help, vote(?), if this is what we get? Why wouldn't we have a Trump if politicians can justify stuff like this to themselves?

Courageous leadership seeks truth and facts, EVEN IF THEY WILL MAKE A DECISION TO CONTRADICT THOSE FACTS. That's what leadership does. It takes responsibility for inspiring, convincing and moving minds.

If any councillor is reading this, I'd say, in contrast, this process is only a con, and very destructive. It depletes the one, most important resource in a democracy: trust.

Shameful.

Way to go councillor Andrew! Bravo!

[Stephen James]

Recall legislation would be dangerous, in that it would become a de facto second chance at an election among those who lost, and continuously used as leverage by those opposed to a councillor or councillors.

What would help is a return to three year terms.

I agree it's a minefield but that's no barrier to writing something with an appropriate standard. I bet we could agree on such a standard if enough work was put into the discussion and research. Plenty of examples to review.

[Mike K.]

The problem there is once you have that foothold, the standard becomes malleable to whoever controls it.

It’s a dangerous precedent. Far more effective is a shorter term, I think. That’s probably why we started with two years, and four is just way, way too long.

[Stephen James]

The problem there is once you have that foothold, the standard becomes malleable to whoever controls it.

It’s a dangerous precedent. Far more effective is a shorter term, I think. That’s probably why we started with two years, and four is just way, way too long.

Two years isn't long enough for a new leader to learn the ropes, then be effective. Three is certainly better. In my experience, with a large complex org, it takes almost a year to develop the working relationships, learn the norms, the way things get done, where the mines are...

 

I agree about "whoever controls it", and an order of magnitude more toxic when we have slates because it should never be political, only a matter of ethics. We can't rely on provincial authority because ethics takes a second seat to "what can these people do for me?" Doesn't matter which tribe.

 

Still think it's doable.

[Victoria Watcher]

the idea is that part of the council "turns", some stay on after each election.  so you have some continuum.  i don't think 4 years is a big problem.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 20 January 2021 - 11:11 AM.

[Nparker]

.. i don't think 4 years is a big problem.

I think the actions of many of the current council is ample evidence that 4 years is a problem.

[JimV]

I think we should return to shorter terms.  Two years may be a bit short to learn the ropes, on the other hand incumbents tend to get re-elected again and again so maybe it’s more more of a theoretical problem than a real one.  Three years may be the most practical compromise.

 

I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t have municipal recall as an option as well.

[TwilightZoneVictoria]

How's the city soliciting feedback for the budgets? Are they mailing questionnaires to residents? If so I've never seen one.

 

Someone I know once received a random CRD travel survey by mail.

[Nparker]

How's the city soliciting feedback for the budgets?...

Allegedly through this document: https://engage.victo...21-draft-budget

 

But be warned; it's clearly written to solicit responses the CoV has already decided upon. Just the sort of "transparency" we've come to expect from the current administration.

[TwilightZoneVictoria]

Allegedly through this document: https://engage.victo...21-draft-budget

 

But be warned; it's clearly written to solicit responses the CoV has already decided upon. Just the sort of "transparency" we've come to expect from the current administration.

How are they officially informing residents about that web link for gathering feedback? Are they mailing letters to random people? Going out in city utility bills? Press releases to the papers?

[Nparker]

How are they officially informing residents about that web link for gathering feedback? ...

They same way they always inform the citizenry: ethereal messengers whisper the info to you while you sleep.

[JimV]

To detect these “consultations” you have to have your antennae out on full alert.  You may then notice an oblique passing reference in some random email or story.  After that you dig through the city web page and, with luck, will find the link.  You will then have the opportunity to agree with everything the city proposes or leave the question blank.

 

Miraculously, the respondents always support city priorities.  Pay no attention to your friends, neighbours, associates or your own lying eyes.  The public is fully behind Lisa’s strong leadership and her far-sighted policy agenda.

[Tom Braybrook]

^

 

the process for eliciting budget feedback  isn't exactly scientific... but "we like it this way!"

[rjag]

That survey was so loaded in their favour it would have made Bernie Madoff proud

[sebberry]

At council on Monday, there was a brief and telling exchange between Stephen Andrew and Ben Isitt, separated by a few comments from others. The exchange was about how the City of Victoria does, or doesn't, consult the community before finalizing the budget.

 

I've watched bits and pieces but I haven't seen that.  What time during the meeting approx?

[Stephen James]

At council on Monday, there was a brief and telling exchange between Stephen Andrew and Ben Isitt, separated by a few comments from others. The exchange was about how the City of Victoria does, or doesn't, consult the community before finalizing the budget.

 

It becomes clear during the meeting that anyone, from anywhere in BC, can load our portal (it sure ain't a survey, lol) with comments that become the feedback for our annual budget. It may be the case that literally anyone from Moscow, Thailand and Tasmania could influence our local budget.

 

Andrew: "So the "survey" isn't .... scientific... its it."

Staff: "Not really a survey."

Isitt: "We like it this way."

 

 

An update to the above:

Looking for an answer, I emailed Councillor Isitt, since he spoke to the issue. I've highlighted the last question here, not in the original email, and I'm a little mystified that Councillor Isitt chose to "punt"... he had a lot to say about this during the meeting.

 

Although it remains unanswered, I have good reason to believe an answer will be forthcoming, and I'll share.  

Here's the exchange:

 

"Hi S,

 

I believe that the answer to your first two questions is yes.

 

I am copying the city’s Head of Engagement to answer the third question.

 

Ben

 

 

Ben Isitt

Victoria City Councillor and CRD Director

Email. bisitt@victoria.ca | Tel. 250.882.9302

 

From: 
Sent: January 20, 2021 10:16 AM
To: Ben Isitt (Councillor) <BIsitt@victoria.ca>
Cc: Lisa Helps (Mayor) <LHelps@victoria.ca>; Stephen Andrew (Councillor) <stephen.andrew@victoria.ca>; Marianne Alto (Councillor) <MAlto@victoria.ca>; Sharmarke Dubow (Councillor) <sdubow@victoria.ca>; Jeremy Loveday (Councillor) <jloveday@victoria.ca>; Sarah Potts (Councillor) <spotts@victoria.ca>; c-thornton-joe@victoria.ca; Geoff Young (Councillor) <gyoung@victoria.ca>
Subject: A question about the council meeting Monday this week.

 

Councillor Isitt,

 

I hope this note finds you and your family well and safe.

 

I'm writing to clarify some comments I heard about our budget "feedback" process because I'm not sure I understood what's been happening, and for how long. 

• Is it true that someone can file a comment into our feedback portal, identify themselves as not living in Victoria and still be included?
• Is it true that someone from Halifax, Israel, Saanich, Peru, Moscow could claim to be from Victoria and be included?
• Why do we allow this to happen?

Sincerely,

 

S

really, really from Victoria, BC."

[Stephen James]

^^^^^^

I think this is a really big deal, btw.

Not wanting real answers, not wanting to know what the community thinks is impossible for me to reconcile with the idea of leadership.

[spanky123]

I am not worried about the person who states they are from Israel being included in the survey as much as I am the person from Israel stating that they are from Victoria.

 

The vast majority of the survey run by Governments are bogus. They start with a result and then work backwards to get support for it. Lots of survey and consulting companies quite happy to prostitute their ethics for a well paying Government gig.

Edited by spanky123, 21 January 2021 - 09:28 AM.

[Stephen James]

I'm aware of lots of government surveys, done at all three levels, that were done independently, with the intent to gather uncorrupted information. I'm sorry to hear your perception is so universally bad.

 

There's nothing acceptable about how Victoria does this and we deserve real research with real answers, for our money. Full stop.

 

Like I said, there's no way to reconcile this "process" with democracy. It's nothing short of a corruption and a con.