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City of Victoria | 2018-2022 | Mayor and council general discussion


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#11601 Awaiting Juno

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Posted 06 July 2022 - 10:35 AM

in short they want to apply DPA 16 (Development Permit Area) to your neighbourhood - yours is one of several neighbourhoods covered by special DPA's, in you case DPA 5 

 

DPA 16 applies to the entire city, and they are ensuring you are aware that it also covers your DPA as well, because DPA  5 had its own specific guidelines - you can find them on page 23 of the OCP link below

 

basically they want to have the same development controls in your area as the rest of the city  -  hopefully this helps make it as clear as mud

 

 

 

you want to use this link, download the .pdf and read the last two pages of the document

 

https://engage.victo...documents/53359

 

 

 

also go to this link and download appendices to the OCP - look at page 102 for the new guidelines and page 23 for the current guidleines

 

https://www.victoria.../Appendix A.pdf

 

Wouldn't good practice be clearly communicating exactly what is wanting to be done without forcing the reader to have to do their homework and trackdown the supporting information. It should have been included in the package provided to you.


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#11602 Spy Black

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Posted 06 July 2022 - 11:27 AM

As per NParkers comment above, it's complete crap to try and make these kind of wholesale changes before ones time on Council is either willingly, or unwillingly ended by an election.

 

There's no justification for letting a lame duck Mayor, and her potential (and confirmed) lame-duck Councilors make legislative changes of any substance.

 

Maybe Mayor and Council should just concentrate on fixing potholes and ensuring City boulevards get the grass mowed in these next few months?


Edited by Spy Black, 06 July 2022 - 11:27 AM.

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#11603 Taco

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Posted 06 July 2022 - 01:17 PM

If I wanted to propose something that I thought needed to be done to the management committee, I would be sent away (not gently) if I didn't show up with a 1 page summary:

1) the problem, 2) the proposed solution(s), 3) resources and approvals required, 4) all risks quantified, 5) simplified path to the outcome desired.

 

The document might be 1,000 pages of appendices, which only exist if the reader wants/needs the proof, the minute details, measurements, calculations, background, and so on. However the writer is responsible for the summary to be complete, and factual. This, to me, is just being respectful to the readers.

 

Any complaint that this can't be done for a given level of complexity is BS. If it's not done, it's because the writer wasn't held accountable or doesnt know how to do it.

 

If there is no complete, factual summary, written to address the pov of the citizen of Victoria, it's a failed document and insufficient for the purpose. It's not enough to check a box to tell people, it's council and staffs' explicit responsibility to ensure that the initiative was understood by the voters so they could offer an opinion.

 

Unfortunately, and wildly ironic for Mayor Helps, this council has fallen into the worst habits of a government on the way out... based in pure self interest. They seem to care less and less about how to make positive change for the community, if they ever did, and more and more about their righteous beliefs. 

 

Among the ironies for our happy idiot TVers is the irony that this is identical to religion, resulting in similar suffering and unnecessary death. 


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#11604 Nparker

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Posted 06 July 2022 - 01:30 PM

...Unfortunately, and wildly ironic for Mayor Helps, this council has fallen into the worst habits of a government on the way out... based in pure self interest. They seem to care less and less about how to make positive change for the community, if they ever did, and more and more about their righteous beliefs...

I suspect for nearly half of the existing council, asserting their righteous beliefs was their primary motivation for running for public office in the first place.


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#11605 Awaiting Juno

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Posted 06 July 2022 - 08:17 PM

These last weeks might be the worst we will ever know of the current council.


Edited by Awaiting Juno, 06 July 2022 - 08:19 PM.

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#11606 Mike K.

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 06:55 AM

161 people added money to their property taxes destined for First Nations, via the City of Victoria’s reconciliation fund. The monies totalled $36k, but it cost the City $10k to administer the program.

Few buy into costly reconciliation fund


Taxpayers paid $10,000 to collect $36,153


While few residents have contributed to the city’s reconciliation contribution fund, that doesn’t reflect on the public support for reconciliation efforts.

In these troubled times, Victoria's controversial fundraiser cost taxpayers about $10,000 to collect $36,153 from just 161 residents who made donations by July 4.

"This city council has a regular habit of operating outside it's lane," says Stan Bartlett, vice-chair of Grumpy Taxpayer$ of Greater Victoria.

"This controversial reconciliation fund is probably the only one in the country and it's not surprising no other municipality has seen fit to replicate it."

Residents were asked to consider making an additional, voluntary contribution equal to 5 or 10 percent of their property taxes or an amount of their choosing to Songhees and Esquimault First Nations. A donation can be made at any time during the year, but most residents would have sent it in prior to the deadline for 2022 property taxes on July 4.

There are about 32,800 property tax folios in the city. This is the number of tax notices sent out, not necessarily equal to the number of owners since some are owned by multiple people and others own multiple properties.

It cost almost $10,000 to produce an insert sent to taxpayers along with their tax notice. Other unspecified or quantified administrative costs to operate the reconciliation contribution fund were ‘nominal,’ according to the City of Victoria.

Earlier this year city council approved a controversial $200,000 reconciliation grant to Songhees and Esquimault First Nations.

Meanwhile, Saanich plans to consult First Nations after the fall election before establishing any public reconciliation fund. Metchosin is consulting with Sc’ianew First Nation over a suggested reconciliation fund.

But doesn’t using municipal taxes and labour to operate a fundraiser for another self-governing nation seem an unjustifiable or illegal role for a municipal government? Doesn’t it put them in direct competition to the dozens of other local charities? Doesn’t the federal government plan to spend $27.5 billion on Indigenous peoples in this fiscal year? Doesn’t everyone have the option of donating to an indigenous peoples charity that will issue a federal tax receipt?

Taxpayers have a whole bunch of questions.
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#11607 spanky123

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 07:01 AM

^ To give this context, Langford taxpayers donated $500K to help people in the Ukraine and Saanich / CoV taxpayers have funded $200K (thus far) to assist injured police officers. I think $30K pretty much sums up how people are tired of reconciliation (except those who profit from it of course).


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#11608 Awaiting Juno

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 08:16 AM

Good intentions, awful execution will go down as the tag line of this council. Again, and again and again - the goal has merit (reconciliation with First Nations), but the strategies fall far short (in this case the fund) and have the unintended consequence of potentially damaging progress on this important portfolio. 161 donations from more than 32,800 notices - that's a take up rate of 0.5% and has the potential to send the wrong message to local First Nations (that locals don't care about reconciliation).  Truth is many care about reconciliation, but do not see the chosen method as being the right one for a variety of very valid reasons.

 

This is yet another "booby trap" set by the current council for any future council who seeks to remedy the bad policy with better policy. 


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#11609 Nparker

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 08:24 AM

I suspect many people feel they already pay enough taxes at the Federal and Provincial level, a portion of which are directed towards reconciliation. The CoV had no justifiable reason to ask its citizens to voluntarily contribute more. This should not be on the agenda of any municipal government.


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#11610 spanky123

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 08:27 AM

This is yet another "booby trap" set by the current council for any future council who seeks to remedy the bad policy with better policy. 

 

Unless of course the intent all along was division, knowing what the outcome would be. Now the Mayor and council can tell FN that they need to continue to support them as clearly the broader public doesn't care.

 

As an aside, this is EXACTLY the outcome Geoff Young predicted when he voted against the measure.


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#11611 Mike K.

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 08:28 AM

Oh it’s a lot lower than 0.5%.

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#11612 spanky123

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 08:29 AM

Oh it’s a lot lower than 0.5%.

 

Agreed, many of the 161 payments could have come from outside Victoria, apparently the City refuses to disclose where the money came from.


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#11613 Barrrister

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 08:35 AM

I still want to know why Stephen Andrews flip flopped on the missing middle and decided to rush a vote in the middle of the summer instead of waiting for a new council on the biggest zoning change in the cities history. The notice for the single hearing does not even explain at all what the hearing is about. 

 

Was he promised something? Was a deal made . I was one of his earliest and biggest supporters but he has lost my vote since he was last elected. Seems to me he is just another Lisa Helps.


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#11614 Mike K.

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 09:21 AM

Agreed, many of the 161 payments could have come from outside Victoria, apparently the City refuses to disclose where the money came from.


Of course.

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#11615 JimV

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 10:35 AM

I’m slightly surprised at the take up.  I expected it to be about half of the pittance it actually was.  I think much of the problem (if problem it is) is that no one really knows what reconciliation is or what it’s expected to achieve.  About the only outward signs of reconciliation that we actually see are:

 

- tiresome recitations of “traditional territories” that now precede every public announcement or event

- the ongoing dismantling of mainstream history (JAM, Cook, Old Town, etc.)

- renaming of streets and parks

- preferential treatment of FN offenders in the justice system

- transfers of vast amounts of unaccountable money to FNs

- more drumming and traditional dancing

 

Does any of this actually benefit the FNs in any material way?  I don’t know.  We rarely hear from the FNs themselves except for the usual activists.  Revenue sharing of natural resources revenue is probably fair and useful, but that doesn’t have much to do with everyday citizens who are supposed to be enthusiastic about reconciliation.


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#11616 Awaiting Juno

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 12:32 PM

I’m slightly surprised at the take up.  I expected it to be about half of the pittance it actually was.  I think much of the problem (if problem it is) is that no one really knows what reconciliation is or what it’s expected to achieve.  About the only outward signs of reconciliation that we actually see are:

 

- tiresome recitations of “traditional territories” that now precede every public announcement or event

- the ongoing dismantling of mainstream history (JAM, Cook, Old Town, etc.)

- renaming of streets and parks

- preferential treatment of FN offenders in the justice system

- transfers of vast amounts of unaccountable money to FNs

- more drumming and traditional dancing

 

Does any of this actually benefit the FNs in any material way?  I don’t know.  We rarely hear from the FNs themselves except for the usual activists.  Revenue sharing of natural resources revenue is probably fair and useful, but that doesn’t have much to do with everyday citizens who are supposed to be enthusiastic about reconciliation.

 

Here's what I see as being a genuine step towards reconciliation: children are learning about first nations culture in schools in similar ways to how we learned about French and British culture and that is a good thing. I appreciate that my children have been able to learn from First Nations and that First Nations have been willing to share their culture in schools. I'd like to see more history in public places - placards that inform the public about the significant role some places played in their culture. I'd like to see more double names of places - like how Mount Doug is also Pkols - and it would be really awesome to have far more inclusion of First Nations as part of the fabric of our community. I think the class action and compensation awarded for residential school survivors was a good thing - and that orange shirt day serves a very valuable purpose in our country. I'd like to see First Nations businesses succeed (actually I'd like to see all businesses succeed) and for the gap in outcomes to be greatly reduced and for there to no longer be a correlation with First Nation status and negative health and socio-economic outcomes. I want to see First Nations flourish just as much as all other Canadians. I don't buy into the argument that reconciliation is supposed to be uncomfortable or painful - not if the long term goal is having a healthy relationship with a foundation of respect going forward. 


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#11617 Taco

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Posted 07 July 2022 - 12:33 PM

I’m slightly surprised at the take up.  I expected it to be about half of the pittance it actually was.  I think much of the problem (if problem it is) is that no one really knows what reconciliation is or what it’s expected to achieve.  About the only outward signs of reconciliation that we actually see are:

 

- tiresome recitations of “traditional territories” that now precede every public announcement or event

- the ongoing dismantling of mainstream history (JAM, Cook, Old Town, etc.)

- renaming of streets and parks

- preferential treatment of FN offenders in the justice system

- transfers of vast amounts of unaccountable money to FNs

- more drumming and traditional dancing

 

Does any of this actually benefit the FNs in any material way?  I don’t know.  We rarely hear from the FNs themselves except for the usual activists.  Revenue sharing of natural resources revenue is probably fair and useful, but that doesn’t have much to do with everyday citizens who are supposed to be enthusiastic about reconciliation.

and this is the point.

 

Mayor Helps and her apologists on council should be sanctioned for misusing a word they clearly don't understand, and sanctioned because of the harm they've done to the idea of reconciliation. Given Mayor Helps inability to listen to anyone but sycophants, this shouldn't be a surprise. 

 

(sit at a table with her and watch what happens if someone offers an opinion that differs from her own.)



#11618 spanky123

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Posted 08 July 2022 - 07:54 AM

Here's what I see as being a genuine step towards reconciliation: children are learning about first nations culture in schools in similar ways to how we learned about French and British culture and that is a good thing. I appreciate that my children have been able to learn from First Nations and that First Nations have been willing to share their culture in schools. I'd like to see more history in public places - placards that inform the public about the significant role some places played in their culture. I'd like to see more double names of places - like how Mount Doug is also Pkols - and it would be really awesome to have far more inclusion of First Nations as part of the fabric of our community. I think the class action and compensation awarded for residential school survivors was a good thing - and that orange shirt day serves a very valuable purpose in our country. I'd like to see First Nations businesses succeed (actually I'd like to see all businesses succeed) and for the gap in outcomes to be greatly reduced and for there to no longer be a correlation with First Nation status and negative health and socio-economic outcomes. I want to see First Nations flourish just as much as all other Canadians. I don't buy into the argument that reconciliation is supposed to be uncomfortable or painful - not if the long term goal is having a healthy relationship with a foundation of respect going forward. 

 

I don't disagree with your points Janice but the reality is that the relationship with FN is very complex. Hundreds of bands, many different organizational structures, many different types of relationships, etc. If there was even a 20 size fits all solution it would have been dealt with decades ago. This is not up to a municipality to try and resolve on its own. 

 

When it comes to local history and education then I am all for an open honest representation but not a whitewash of the misdeeds of one side in order to present a negative narrative of the other. 


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#11619 Nparker

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Posted 08 July 2022 - 07:56 AM

...This is not up to a municipality to try and resolve on its own...

More simply put, reconciliation is not a municipal issue.


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#11620 Awaiting Juno

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Posted 08 July 2022 - 08:16 AM

More simply put, reconciliation is not a municipal issue.

 

But municipalities have a role to play, just as individuals do, provinces and the feds do too - where we fail is in failing to understand what that role is. That role is not providing financial reparations at the municipal level - that is the domain of the province/fed via treaty negotiations. The municipal role is to foster a community of respect and integration with the local FN communities. 


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