276 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

The Langford neighbourboods haven’t come together yet, they’re still works in progress. There is nothing master planned about them like you’d see at UBC. So which is more permanent and legitimate, the master planned blocks, or the organic works in progress?

I reference Langford because we have an example of a community locally building the nirvana of urban nodes, with all buildings up to the lot lines, with decent density, parking underground, and so on. But it still gets dragged, is called illegitimate, non-permanent, and so on.

Maybe the way Langford is doing it isn’t the best way? Maybe plazas and variation with quality urban aesthetic is the spice?

At the very least I’d like some consensus. There are too many mixed signals from the urbanists, leading me to think for all the grief we go through, more times than not we end up with a ‘well that turned out better than the renderings.’

[Mike K.]

Ok, as per aastra's request, since I'm in his bad books now.

 

What's the urbanist gain/loss here? Is this the solution you're looking for? Is the restaurant realm improved, or the entrance to the grocery store? Is the office entrance relative to the restaurant and grocery store entrances enhanced?

 

 

 

[Mike K.]

I get that you are trying to rile me up

Saying mid-block shouldn't be built because there are a few bad actors, is same as saying we shouldn't have roads because there are bad drivers. I mean think of the maintenance costs due to bad drivers. On the whole the vast majority of users of mid-block walkways are law abiding citizens.

 

If we're honest with ourselves, the concept has become a liability, and a danger zone outside of business hours so the gates are shut on most of them. That's why these walkways are contentious, and why the only thing keeping them alive is political life support.

 

I used to work along one when I had an office above Milley's Lane, and that was eons ago. What it's like now I couldn't even guess.

[G-Man]

Millie's Lane is a truly great space now during the day.

[Mike K.]

Granted, it’s a very different environment than the mid-block walkways. Lanes I don’t mind so much, they’re wide and feel like the public realm. You feel like you have room to avoid close contact with others, businesses back onto them, etc.

Mid-block walkways feel private, like you’re trespassing, and their design requires closures by night due to crime and danger. That’s not an ideal scenario.

[G-Man]

Yeah Fantan Alley is a dump...

It is about design and animation. If you make a place hidden away undesirable and without eyes on it, they will be undesirable places. That is the fault of architect and developer as well as the city for not forcing them to do better, not about mid-block walkways not being useful and potentially amazing places.

[Mike K.]

If they were all Fan Tans that’d be quite something. Sadly the rest are failures.

[G-Man]

Trounce, Waddington... We just need to build them better, not write off what is a great urban mobility tool.

[Mike K.]

Let’s back up for a moment.

Mid-block walkways are not alleys. Alleys in downtown are great, for the most part. Some could use a bit of elbow grease but they’re great.

My issue is with the mid-block walkways (not alleys). The walkways are very poorly executed and are forced on projects without any real plan to make them pop.

[G-Man]

I think you are slicing and dicing on the same thing. What is the difference between them for you?

[aastra]

I like how the terrace on top of the one podium is at a distinctly different level than the terrace on top of the other podium. It helps to make it all seem more like two different projects beside each other rather than one big unified project.

 

Okay, Mike K.'s relentless badgering has convinced me once again. But let's just say he can expect a Biblical shower of toilet paper rolls out at his estate if subsequent developments on the other corners of Douglas & Caledonia also try to get away with distinctly un-downtownish setbacks.

[LJ]

I don't think anyone is ragging on downtown Langford. What you do see on twitter and elsewhere about Langford is concern about the swaths of forest being cut down for suburban single family homes.

 

Can you point me to the swaths of forest that Victoria left standing for all to enjoy.

[Mike K.]

I think you are slicing and dicing on the same thing. What is the difference between them for you?

They are distinctly different things.

The alleys are functional spaces, created a century ago. The mid-block walkways are modern, and forced pedestrians paths that require closing by night and are contentious when they are open.

[Mike K.]

I like how the terrace on top of the one podium is at a distinctly different level than the terrace on top of the other podium. It helps to make it all seem more like two different projects beside each other rather than one big unified project.

Okay, Mike K.'s relentless badgering has convinced me once again. But let's just say he can expect a Biblical shower of toilet paper rolls out at his estate if subsequent developments on the other corners of Douglas & Caledonia also try to get away with distinctly un-downtownish setbacks.

I’ll know it’s you, though. I’ll toilet paper roll your estate if you toilet paper roll my estate.

[G-Man]

They are distinctly different things.

The alleys are functional spaces, created a century ago. The mid-block walkways are modern, and forced pedestrians paths that require closing by night and are contentious when they are open.

Isn't that what I said before? Make them more interesting and with things to do? Seems like the answer is just make the developer do a good job of making them rather than phoning it in with the most basic path that fulfills the requirements.

[Mike K.]

We’ve tried that too, all failures.

[G-Man]

^ Where?

[Mike K.]

See, you can’t even think of them. The mid-block walkways between Broughton and View. They all have struggling commercial spaces (pre-COVID), including the one at RBC. Nobody can even tell you the names of the businesses within (or what businesses were there).

Another we tried with a bit of a different design is the First Island walkway between Fisgard and Cormorant. The offices look over it for the Fisgard portion but the rest is sketchy even during the day.

The one success is the Carriageway between the Hudson buildings, but that’s no mid-block walkway, that’s something else entirely.

[G-Man]

I think you know that they work and are purposely selecting poor examples, but I will play along. 

 

We know what is needed to make those outdoor commercial mid-block walkways (or "alleys") busy with shoppers and we have multiple examples of them in Victoria with Fantan, Trounce and Dragon Alleys. I would also suggest that no one is against ones on the interior of buildings like St. Andrews Mall. So what makes these places work? Commercial retail with big windows looking out into the walkway. Lots of things to draw the eye and a feeling of intimacy. They should also provide some convenience but mostly they are destinations. Your example of Royal Mall from the 1980's? is not a useful walkway as it is not carrying you through to somewhere else in a convenient manner.

 

For whatever reason you didn't mention the mid-block walkway just to the East of here by Brown's Florist which is just fine as transportation walkway, I walk through that one on at least a weekly basis to the library and never seem to have issues. 

 

Also as I am sort of indicating mid-block walkway have no prescribed style or size. I have written about them a few times

 

They can be a wide boulevard park space like Harris Green Village; a bunch of doors and crosswalks through a parkade; a mall like St. Andrews or the Bay Centre or simply a parking lot with a pathway indicated through it. They all provide a convenient route for pedestrians. 

 

You say that they are all "failures" but I am not sure how that is defined. I mean apart from the two that have been closed for the length of the pandemic only to open recently on threat of legal action haven't been given a chance to succeed. The First Island Financial route was never going to be as bustling as Fan Tan Alley  but it is used a lot by those that live and work nearby. I expect as the Hudson project completes that will only increase. Is it a failure? I am not sure that it is. Even the one that goes between the housing projects into the Johnson Street parkade, which I wouldn't recommend to people (but I use it on again a weekly basis) is fine and well used. So what does a "failed" walkway look like? If it is just the Royal Mall, I might agree with you that didn't work. That said with some lighting and fun signage by that bus stop and it might. 

 

Anyways I am sure we have a thread on this and really we should be talking about failed plazas which actually there might be more of then mid-block walkways.

[Mike K.]

Lots of dreams, but in practice they are liabilities for the people who have to maintain them (and I'm not talking about the historic alleys that were designed right, I'm talking about the modern ones that are austere and dysfunctional although we keep asking for them). I used the First Island Financial one a few times when I lived at the Hudson, then stopped, because it was so sketchy. Far safer to walk the sidewalks. So I'm not surprised residents whose stratas are required to maintain these walkways would prefer them to be closed off.

 

I'm thoroughly puzzled how these walkways are held up as successful urbanism when we can all see they are not, but a nice, aesthetically well designed plaza at the entrance to 500 residences, a grocery store, offices and retail spaces is dunked on as anti-downtown. I'm at a total loss here.