3334 replies to this topic

[Bob Fugger]

VicPD is no different than any other public sector employer in trying to increase staff complement when they don't really appear to need it.  Council was right to ask the Chief to find more efficiencies within the existing police budget.  They ought to be reviewing what services they provide, what their core services are and then cut the chaff.

 

If I was on council, I'd pop this up on the screen and ask the Chief to explain exactly why they need more cop when:

 

1. Aside from the rampant crime sprees of 2014-2015 (lol), crime rates are trending down (and have been for decades).
2. Clearance rates are well within a standard deviation.
3. The charge rate per 100k population is decreasing.

I'm guessing that the argument will be that crime statistics are not representative of what they know is happening on the street.  If that's the case, Chief, feel free to show your work.

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[Cassidy]

^^^This^^^

Any manager worth their salt knows that they're going to regularly receive directions from "above" which will oblige him/her to search out the dead weight already on the payroll, or explain in great detail why he/she needs somebody new to be added to his payroll.

 

The misguided concept that the VicPD (or any PD for that matter) deserves an open cheque book when it comes to their funding requests is a folly.

In fact the occasional house-cleaning to relieve any dead weight encourages any manager (the Chief in this case) to stay focused on the priorities, and tends to avoid any pet projects of questionable taxpayer benefit.

Edited by Cassidy, 15 February 2019 - 09:53 AM.

[Mike K.]

A counter to the lower crime = less policing resources required argument is that policing has become more complex and resource intensive. In order to bring a suspect to trial and successfully convict the perp the paper trail must be precise, all I’s dotted and T’s crossed. That’s resource intensive and takes hours of desk work that once upon a time would have been street work.

The violence towards the police is also on the rise. Manak has two dozen officers on leave due to work-related incidents.

[Cassidy]

 Manak has two dozen officers on leave due to work-related incidents.

This has been commented on previously on V.V., and as noted then - VicPD has a massive number of employees (percentage wise) constantly absent ...  all with zero accountability to taxpayers.

 

Sounds like Manak has a lot more housekeeping to complete before he starts trying to push for millions more $$ than he's currently receiving.

Edited by Cassidy, 15 February 2019 - 09:59 AM.

[Bob Fugger]

A counter to the lower crime = less policing resources required argument is that policing has become more complex and resource intensive. In order to bring a suspect to trial and successfully convict the perp the paper trail must be precise, all I’s dotted and T’s crossed. That’s resource intensive and takes hours of desk work that once upon a time would have been street work.

 

If this is indeed the case, the Chief should be able to easily point to KPIs indicating these metrics.  As to work-related absences, that's a tough one.  Policing is a physically and psychologically taxing profession and I can only assume that they self-insure (I can't imagine that an LTD provider would cover policing) - maybe this has to be removed from budget calculation.  Not sure what best practices are in other jurisdictions on this.

[rmpeers]

I am all for holding VicPD to account in their budget asks. But given that our local government are not applying the same level of fiscal prudence elsewhere, it chafes that they suddenly become penny-pinchers where the police budget is concerned.

[Greg]

Except council isn't pushing back on the police budget out of financial prudence, or in desire of increased efficiency. They are pushing back because they think the population of Victoria, particularly the homeless population, are "over-policed."

[Nparker]

That's a good point Greg.

[spanky123]

I am all for holding VicPD to account in their budget asks. But given that our local government are not applying the same level of fiscal prudence elsewhere, it chafes that they suddenly become penny-pinchers where the police budget is concerned.

 

Very valid point. Money for climate change and trees but no money for cops doesn't play well with some groups. Having said that, giving the police what they are asking for would necessitate raising taxes beyond what Helps has stated. That would not play well either.

Edited by spanky123, 15 February 2019 - 11:05 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

A counter to the lower crime = less policing resources required argument is that policing has become more complex and resource intensive. In order to bring a suspect to trial and successfully convict the perp the paper trail must be precise, all I’s dotted and T’s crossed. That’s resource intensive and takes hours of desk work that once upon a time would have been street work.

 

where is the evidence that this is the case?  somewhere between 90 and 95% of cases never even go to trial the accused pleads guilty.  perhaps crown is asking for more paperwork.  but crown is also often not bothering with non-violent property crime cases either.  and police are not spending time on many cases either.  if your car is vandalized outside a business that has security cameras police have no interest in that kind of case.  and surely policing and prosecuting has become easier for many cases where video surveillance is employed or where dna can help like sex offences or where computers track long paper trails or contain damning evidence.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 15 February 2019 - 12:23 PM.

[Victoria Watcher]

“Our city is growing, our population is growing, the complexity of police is growing and the complexity of the world is growing,” Help said. “I think the exact wrong thing to do is make cuts to the police budget so I don’t support this.”

https://www.vicnews....udget-decision/

one could also argue the local private security business is growing even faster. doesn’t that take some pressure off police?

and surely technology is helping police save time. social media is helping them find missing people. license plate readers. In car computer systems. cell phones.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 15 February 2019 - 01:04 PM.

[Rob Randall]

Statement from Charlayne Thornton-Joe:

 

I did not support this cut in policing and neither did the Mayor or Councillor Young. (Councillor Alto was sick). The police presented their budget which included core increases (annual wage increases and the new employee health tax) and as well as their supplementary request that included new officers (one primarily for cyber crimes) and to continue the 2 additional officers for the Assertive Community Treatment Teams. A majority of my colleagues did not support this supplementary budget and went further to say that police need to come in at a rate of inflation plus 1%. Unfortunately, due to the new employee health tax, that puts the police core budget above inflation plus 1% which means the police will have to find reductions by possibly cutting approximately 8 officers.....even though they had requested to actually increase officers due to need.

I have many concerns.....

1. As Councillors, we are tasked with considering many important things (climate change, transportation, affordable housing), but I believe one of the fundamental things that we are responsible for is public safety whether it is real or perceived.

 

2. We are told that we have too many officers for our population....but our population is more than 85,000 when you see how many people come and work in our City, come dine in our City, come from other places to visit our City, etc, etc.

 

3. We have seen an increase in our population, our liquor establishments, our festivals, our events, our protests, our dignitaries visiting our Capital City yet we have not had an increase in full time officers since 2010.

 

4. We need to do more work in prevention and growing issues of cyber crimes (often preying on seniors and new immigrants), child **rnography, ensuring that gangs to not become entrenched here, sex trafficking, sexual assaults, domestic violence and increased time for court cases.

 

5. I want officers to be able to quickly respond to issues such as vandalism and violence in relation to late night bar issues, distracted and driving while intoxicated or high, theft from businesses and safety of workers in our businesses, or monitoring sex offenders in our community.

 

6. I want officers to do more proactive engagement and relationship building such as attending meetings in our community to answer questions, serving on the Police Diversity committee, attending events such as in our Chinese community, playing soccer with Muslim youth, going to a hockey games with participants of the Aboriginal Coalition to End Homelessness, serving meals at Our Place.......which I am concerned may be cut just like last year’s school liaisons.

 

7. I am concerned about police officer’s safety. They risk their lives each and every day and often are on leave due to sickness, workplace injuries and stress leave. Having reduced officers to do the job puts officers at risk.

 

8. When we asked citizens for input on the budget 61% said they supported more officers. 71% said they supported the two additional officers on the ACT Teams and they said that the employee health tax should be paid through new accessed revenue from new development. All of these were not supported by a majority of council.

What’s next.......the police board will have to let us know what will need to be cut or shifted to meet this reduced budget. I am saddened by the decision made yesterday.

 

I want to thank the officers that serve for Vic and Esquimalt PD.

[spanky123]

So much for council sticking together. Maybe if they had focused on 10-15 priorities instead of 180 then it would be clear where funding should be allocated.

Edited by spanky123, 15 February 2019 - 03:09 PM.

[Nparker]

Maybe the CoV needs to take a serious look at where it is focusing its spending priorities.

[Cassidy]

Perhaps residents of the COV should have spent a little more time honing in on the specific beliefs of the people they chose to vote for on Council?

 

None of the nay-sayers to the police budget request were acclaimed or otherwise "plunked" into their Council chairs by magic ... COV voters (who bothered to vote) got in their cars, walked into the voters booth,, and put them there!

[Bob Fugger]

Statement from Charlayne Thornton-Joe:

 

I did not support this cut in policing and neither did the Mayor or Councillor Young. (Councillor Alto was sick). The police presented their budget which included core increases (annual wage increases and the new employee health tax) and as well as their supplementary request that included new officers (one primarily for cyber crimes) and to continue the 2 additional officers for the Assertive Community Treatment Teams. A majority of my colleagues did not support this supplementary budget and went further to say that police need to come in at a rate of inflation plus 1%. Unfortunately, due to the new employee health tax, that puts the police core budget above inflation plus 1% which means the police will have to find reductions by possibly cutting approximately 8 officers.....even though they had requested to actually increase officers due to need.

I have many concerns.....

1. As Councillors, we are tasked with considering many important things (climate change, transportation, affordable housing), but I believe one of the fundamental things that we are responsible for is public safety whether it is real or perceived.

 

2. We are told that we have too many officers for our population....but our population is more than 85,000 when you see how many people come and work in our City, come dine in our City, come from other places to visit our City, etc, etc.

 

3. We have seen an increase in our population, our liquor establishments, our festivals, our events, our protests, our dignitaries visiting our Capital City yet we have not had an increase in full time officers since 2010.

 

4. We need to do more work in prevention and growing issues of cyber crimes (often preying on seniors and new immigrants), child **rnography, ensuring that gangs to not become entrenched here, sex trafficking, sexual assaults, domestic violence and increased time for court cases.

 

5. I want officers to be able to quickly respond to issues such as vandalism and violence in relation to late night bar issues, distracted and driving while intoxicated or high, theft from businesses and safety of workers in our businesses, or monitoring sex offenders in our community.

 

6. I want officers to do more proactive engagement and relationship building such as attending meetings in our community to answer questions, serving on the Police Diversity committee, attending events such as in our Chinese community, playing soccer with Muslim youth, going to a hockey games with participants of the Aboriginal Coalition to End Homelessness, serving meals at Our Place.......which I am concerned may be cut just like last year’s school liaisons.

 

7. I am concerned about police officer’s safety. They risk their lives each and every day and often are on leave due to sickness, workplace injuries and stress leave. Having reduced officers to do the job puts officers at risk.

 

8. When we asked citizens for input on the budget 61% said they supported more officers. 71% said they supported the two additional officers on the ACT Teams and they said that the employee health tax should be paid through new accessed revenue from new development. All of these were not supported by a majority of council.

What’s next.......the police board will have to let us know what will need to be cut or shifted to meet this reduced budget. I am saddened by the decision made yesterday.

 

I want to thank the officers that serve for Vic and Esquimalt PD.

 

Hmmm, it's almost as though a municipal police force for 85k surrounded by another 300k+ in population policed by a patchwork of other forces makes absolutely no ****ing sense...

[Victoria Watcher]

from the councillor above:

2. We are told that we have too many officers for our population....but our population is more than 85,000 when you see how many people come and work in our City, come dine in our City, come from other places to visit our City, etc, etc.


let me point out what should be quite obvious. it’s rarely workers diners and visitors that are requiring police attention. except when they have been victims of the street criminals.

id like to see a breakdown of issues police deal with. id guess it might be 25% or more street issues. and they always seem to require the largest response size.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 15 February 2019 - 02:54 PM.

[Greg]

from the councillor above:

2. We are told that we have too many officers for our population....but our population is more than 85,000 when you see how many people come and work in our City, come dine in our City, come from other places to visit our City, etc, etc.


let me point out what should be quite obvious. it’s rarely workers diners and visitors that are requiring police attention. except when they have been victims of the street criminals.

id like to see a breakdown of issues police deal with. id guess it might be 25% or more street issues. and they always seem to require the largest response size.

 

Actually, I suspect patrons of bars and pubs are major consumers of police time, probably even greater than the homeless and/or vulnerable population.

 

And those patrons come from Greater Victoria, not just City of Victoria. The city benefits from that tax revenue, and should reinvest some of that money into the associated policing costs.

[Victoria Watcher]

maybe some of the 2am stuff for sure.  but that's 14 hours a week at best.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 15 February 2019 - 03:30 PM.

[Sparky]

^^ Commercial property owners pay triple the tax rate than do residences so the city does benefit from commerce.

They just don’t spend it wisely.